Stories of Recovery

Trevor (Chronic Pain): Full Episode - Recovery from chronic/persistent back pain

• Robbie Frawley

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Episode 3: Full episode - Trevor Barker - Recovery from chronic/persistent back pain (Chronic pain)

In this episode we meet Trevor Barker, a former electrician and now support coordinator from north eastern Victoria who following a minor workplace injury, developed and lived with debilitating chronic lower back pain for over 20 years. His eventual recovery came swiftly through education and he now works with some of the world's leading pain scientists and educators to share his story and encourage others to learn more and make meaningful change in their own lives. Trevor has appeared on SBS’s Insight program, as well as contributing to various podcasts, radio and print media and continues to share and champion recovery from persistent pain.

We meet Trevor and hear about his life, the injuries which initiated his pain and the deterioration of his condition. He describes the turning point, and the things which were most important in his recovery. He also explains how he deals with pain flare-ups if they occur.

Full transcripts and show notes are available for each chapter on the podcast website: storiesofrecovery.buzzsprout.com

Trevor's recommendations:

  • 24:09 - The Persistent Pain Service at Albury Wodonga Health is where Trevor took part in a 3 week intensive full time residential program.  The 'turning point' for his pain,
  • 25:32 & 53:36 - Holding his arms up during the intake assessment (in contrast to the other things which he could not complete), initiated a thought process in his mind...'if I use my body, it can be strong'. Trevor's advice - use your body and make it strong,
  • 31:25 - Try to incorporate movement and mindfulness into your life. Reduce stress and retrain the pain system,
  • 32:00 & 56:20 - Learn that 'pain doesn't have a direct relationship with tissue damage', 
  • 35:00 - Practice mindfulness (Trevor explains what he learnt and how he practices it),
  • 38:11 - Practice 'crossing the midline above shoulder height' throughout the day to stop the brain from spreading pain msgs across the brain/body,
  • 43:30 - Explore the resources of the Pain Revolution, and perhaps read 'Explain Pain',
  • 57:34 - Read about DIM-SIM therapy (Danger In Me - Safety In Me) & give it a go, 
  • 1:01:39 - Find a medical professional who is trained in pain science, who can safely assess what you are 'safe' to do, and can work with you to understand pain and recover,
  • 1:07:16 - Watch these two great videos by David Butler and Lorimer Moseley, 
  • 1:08:20 - Read Alison Sim's book Pain Heroes. Trevor refers to it as 'painful yarns' in the interview which is another good book by Lorimer Moseley,
  • 1:09:03 - Have the courage to try new things, new approaches - "give things a go",
  • 1:12:27 - Be wary of anyone who is trying to treat you with a 'Biomedical' approach, rather than a 'Biopsychosocial' approach,
  • 1:18:33 - How to deal with pain 'flare-ups', a practical example,
  • 1:28:06 - Trevor's msg to those still in pain.

For more detailed show notes, see the individual chapter sections on the podcast website.

Robbie Frawley:

Welcome to Stories of Recovery. My name is Robbie Frawley and on this podcast I interview people who have experienced and recovered from brain related conditions such as stroke, concussion, chronic pain and traumatic brain injury. We'll discuss their story and highlight the things which have been most beneficial and most important in their recovery. This might be specific treatments or medical professionals that were most crucial. It could be books, knowledge or advice which they were given or which they found along the way, or even particular habits, attitudes, or practices that helped them the most. If you or someone you care about is struggling to recover from one of these or another brain related condition, the podcast was really made with you in mind, I want you to know that others have been where you are now and that they have gotten better. You can recover and hopefully in the interviews that follow, you will hear a thing or two which resonate and which help you to do just that. So who am I? Well, I'm a young man who grew up in country Victoria, Australia and I've had a number of concussions growing up playing sport. After the last one, which was over seven years ago, now, I developed something called post concussion syndrome. I'd never even heard of this but it left me with ongoing fatigue, headaches, nausea, vertigo, cognitive fog, overwhelm, and sensitivity to impact. It had a really dramatic effect on my life and it took many years, much effort and great assistance from others to fully recover from it. And now that I am back to 100%, and again, have some surplus energy, I'd like to help you in any way I can to get you back to good health. My hope is that we can provide some light at the end of the tunnel for you and also give you some useful tips and tricks that might help you along the way. Now, one thing to remember is that the brain is a really marvellous thing....and you CAN get better. I've left in as much of the context, detail and information in these interviews as possible, which means they can be quite long. But they're split into key chapters to make it easier to listen and to help you to focus on what you need to hear right now and remember that you can pause and come back to the story in as many small bites as you need. Now, without further ado, let's jump into it. In this episode, I'm speaking with Trevor Barker, a former electrician and now support coordinator from north eastern Victoria, who following a minor workplace injury, developed and lived with debilitating chronic lower back pain for over 20 years. His eventual recovery came swiftly through education and he now works with some of the world's leading pain scientists and educators to share his story and encourage others to learn more and to make meaningful change in their own lives. Trevor has appeared on SBS's Insight programme, as well as contributing to various podcasts, radio and print media, and continues to share and champion recovery from persistent pain. This conversation took place in May 2021, at his home in Katamatite on the lands of the Bangerang and Yorta Yorta people of north eastern Victoria. I'd like to pay my respects to their Elders, past and present, and Aboriginal Elders of other communities who may be listening to this conversation. I wish you courage and energy on your own journey forward and I hope you enjoy this wide ranging conversation. Cheers. Here we are Trevor. Thank you very much for having me. It's wonderful to be here speaking with you after quite a while now. We met just over 12 months ago in Geelong after you'd just given a pretty powerful speech about your experience living with and recovering from chronic pain. That had a real impact on me and whilst this podcast was still really just a thought in my mind at that point, I knew that your story was something that I wanted to delve into in more detail and that it was also something that needed to be shared more widely. So thank you very much for agreeing to speak with me and for having me here in your beautiful home. So to kick off, if you could describe to me what your life looked like before the initial injury. Paint me a picture of you know, what did that look like day to day?

Trevor Barker:

Yeah, so I left school at about 15 and did an electrical apprenticeship. I was working in that trade. I had friends and I loved playing tennis, and playing the flute and other things. So I had a pretty pretty full life at that stage. And my first injury was while I was working as an electrical apprentice, and I was carrying a long extension letter, and from one location to another, and while I was halfway through that, carrying the letter, the top of it hit a beam on the roof. And I had to bend back to get a pastor boom stood up. And after three days, I started to experience quite a bit of pain. Now my response to that was to be quiet, not saying a thing. So I took some sick leave, went and saw the doctor who go miss and paracetamol and some anti inflammatories, and went and saw a physio back to work in a couple of weeks. And that was my first experience of low back pain. And really had an x ray, that stage an x ray showed a bulging disc really wasn't quite sure what that that means. But you know, it was, I don't know, 19. And all this, just wanting to get back to work. So I've got back to work, finished my apprenticeship and got married. And then I had two or three other jobs, and had a family had my first daughter. And then life started to get quite challenging for me. I started in my late 20s, I started to remember being abused as a child. And that put me in a, in a really difficult place of having to deal with a lot of psychological distress. And it was then I really got out of being employed, I had to stop work to deal with this stuff. And retrain and and got into attendant care work working with people with disabilities and acquired brain injury. And it was at that stage in my early 30s That I injured my back for the secon d time,

Robbie Frawley:

Had you had pain...so the initial one was when you were like 18yo - 19yo. Had you had issues with your back in the intermediate period?

Trevor Barker:

Yeah lingering through my 20's.

Robbie Frawley:

But nothing that you were sort of concerned about?

Trevor Barker:

No not not especially, you know, probably taking painkillers and adapting my life lifestyle in a sense of not lifting as much or moving as much to slowly starting to modify things at that stage. And then in my early 30s, I had this incident where I had a client that was we're out in a in the community, and it was the day the Rick Arang of 10 got out at the Melbourne Zoo, and I happened to be at the Melbourne Zoo. And we were Clyde was in a wheelchair, quite a large man. And we we got herded into the back of the butterfly enclosure and cutter Long story short, we ended up having to leave the suit and go back to the hospital where it was living. And the taxi that was transporting us broke down and I needed to transfer him out of the car into his wheelchair. And we're in North good and people know North got lots of blue stone cobblestone gutters. So the wheelchair was, you know, in a precarious position just jammed between the taxi and the gutter and my client just had enough at that stage gave up on the transfer and started to fall forwards. And as he did that, I grabbed him and pulled him back to regain the balance and pulling into the chair. And I felt something goes to paying him back. And, and at that stage, few days later, I was in a serious world of pain. And back to the doctor, X rays, anti inflammatories, Paracin moles, and referrals to physio. And I've never really recovered from that injury. I had a second, a third injury, when I went back, I ended up going back to work about four or five months later, it was a lot of pressure at the time, around return to work and the fact that pupils back injuries are much better off at work. And I went back to work probably 95% fit. And again, in order to try to regain my life. The very first shift that I had going back to work, God fell bent down to pick him up. And that was the enemy really. So we're out in the community and people who do care work in the community understand, you don't have lifting hoists in the middle of a park. You've got to do everything yourself. So at that stage, I had started to try other treatments. I'd been trying physiotherapy, Myo therapy, Chinese massage therapy, deep tissue therapy for almost anyone that had therapy in their nameplate, I'd been there and tried it. And I wasn't getting any any relief at all.

Robbie Frawley:

And were you still working now or were you off?

Trevor Barker:

Yeah I was still working. I had a period of probably six months at that time where I stopped working as an attendant care, I couldn't see myself doing that work. So I retrained and probably had two years of retraining and looking for work as a social welfare officer or a family support worker, where I was still able to work with people but not do the hands on care and lifting work that that was required. So I ended up in naughty naughty five, moving my family by now that we had my first daughter, my son, who was about four months old, old at that stage, we left Melbourne went to Yarrawonga and moved house and I started working as a social welfare officer at Yarrawonga. I did that for 11 years. And during that time, I had full time work. And I was also in quite a bit of pain. So I would be sitting on one of those big exercise balls most of the time did a bit of moving at work. And if I ever went on a conference or training I'd be lying down in in the training room or bring a hot water bottle with me in a pillow and I'd lie down.

Robbie Frawley:

And just to be clear on timeframes. Yep. 18-19(years old) was (when you had) the initial injury. Early 30's you'd had second injury.

Trevor Barker:

Yep and my third injury. Yeah. And then I re-trained road trained and then moved to Yarrawonga.

Robbie Frawley:

So by this point you are how old?

Trevor Barker:

Ah well, I would have been 35

Robbie Frawley:

Okay. Yeah, thanks. So you're still managing to work but you've just got some management strategies that you are utilising

Trevor Barker:

Yeah I was getting weekly treatment. Yeah. And from physiotherapy, massage therapy. I was nice now are added tomorrow regime of of treatment. I was lying down a lot with hot water bottles, painkillers and painkillers here pills. Mainly paracetamol at this stage. Just all the time. Yeah, all the time. I also been prescribed Valium, so dabbled in using valium couldn't really work and use that at the same time and did a lot of lying down with hot water bottles and restricting our movement and and restricting, doing anything that would exacerbate exacerbate motion. So I started to have a more centred and true life. Started at that stage. And I worked through from 95 until 2013. in that timeframe, I was slowly reducing hours of receiving more time off work. And towards the end of 2013. I was really in a lot of pain and by then unable to work,

Robbie Frawley:

and it's a long period of nearly 20 years you're working Yeah, managing it. Yeah. Now, early 50s. Yeah.

Trevor Barker:

And what what was happening in my life at that stage was I was working for Medicare Local, and I was having I was based my office was based in a medical super clinic. So I had daily access to doctors. And at that stage, I was really trying to delve into why the heck am I still in pain? What else can be done, to what is pain out and give me a life and what the doctors were doing, we were then adding Tramadol and opioids to the to the mix treatment mix as a stronger, stronger, stronger painkillers with with an opioid base. And I was seeing a room technologist, I was having nerve pain, taking medication for that. So it was on about six pills at that stage. And really seriously reducing my hours to almost nothing to the point that in 2013, I lost my job at the Medicare Local. And I was having a lot of stress in my life. It was quite a stressful time going through the breakdown in my relationship. I've been married for 30 years at that stage. I ended up long story short, divorcing my first wife, and getting away from what was an incredibly stressful home environment. So going walking alongside that increasing stress was an increasing reliance on medication and treatment and trying to find out what was wrong? And what could fix what was wrong. What was the source of my pain? And what are we going to do about it? And that really is a medical focus. Right through that those 20 or so years, there was no real effort made to understand what else was going on in my life apart from what was wrong with my tissues, issues with tissues were being explored with CT scans, blood tests, MRI scans, referrals to neurologists, and orthopaedic surgeons. Do you know him? Was

Robbie Frawley:

and was that throwing anything up? Like was that giving any...

Trevor Barker:

It gave me some diagnosis...

Robbie Frawley:

I imagine how you see that now is different, but at the time, was it helpful?

Trevor Barker:

Well at the time it was reinforcing...as I look back on that time, it was reinforcing the approach of let's find out what's wrong with you. And let's see what we can do to fix it. Do you need some surgery? Do you need a new medication to attack that problem and deal with it, rather than what else is going on and understanding all of the stress that was in my life and helping me to get some help with that

Robbie Frawley:

and pain in the context of your life rather than just...

Trevor Barker:

So I was being looked at and view and looking at and viewing myself as a person was something going wrong? That was causing pine determined a certain response? And so I was getting specialists to do lots of different investigations to and all they were doing is ruling out what wasn't wrong rather than discovering what was sure not working? Yep. So that was how life was for me. Leading up to really examining for myself? What is going on? Now?

Robbie Frawley:

And just before you do me Yeah, sure, like, what would you have? You're not painting a very enjoyable picture there. What would you have rated your quality of life at that point?

Trevor Barker:

Our my quality of life was right, it couldn't have got any worse really mean, there was no enjoyment. There was no employment. There was a lot of distress, serious, serious distress,

Robbie Frawley:

and you've lost your relationship?

Trevor Barker:

Well, yeah, and I was working through that was trying to have a more effective marriage and went to four different marriage counsellors and some really good people

Robbie Frawley:

putting in the work, I can work.

Trevor Barker:

And it was a situation that was not going to be resolved. So I ended up walking away from the marriage, and seeing myself as a single person in pain. And it was so bad when you talk about quality of life, that I didn't have a job, or I'd taken as much medication as possible. And without being comatose all the time. I tried steroid injections in my back, like a series of three of those over 18 months. And the last one, I couldn't get off the table, my legs just went one of my legs went like, felt like it was playdough. It was all rubbery and numb. And the team that were doing that procedure were quite worried about what what had happened and that adverse response. And so to sort of sum up, how how bad it was, my always starting to develop a plan to sell up. Yeah, and go into a retirement village with a nursing home attached. So that I had this one bedroom unit with no garden, to speak of, suddenly had to basically lie down and 24/7 and watch TV. And that's how I saw myself managing my pain

Robbie Frawley:

at 55.

Trevor Barker:

Yeah, bad 50 threatened stage or something like that. And I actually had gone to make inquiries about how to go through that process, only to discover that you needed to be 55, to qualify for that type of arrangement. So that gave me a two year window where I then started to question what else I could do, because I'd thrown every everything possible medically at this problem, and I was in more pain, and in more distress than I've ever been. And I couldn't throw any more. I couldn't take any more medication without really seriously risking my life. I was having falls. And that's not a good career move someone. I've got some bone conditions that are quite fragile. So I really had to take a serious look at, well, what am I going to do here? If I can't take no medication? And what am I gonna do to have a life and have one where I can work and be different? Yeah. So that's, that's really that point in my life where I started to question what else can I do? I was starting to think where to from here, discovered I couldn't get into the nursing home, spoke to a friend who told me about a pain management programme that he had been to. Yep. And he, he was in far worse stack than what I was he he he was really in a bad way. And he gone to this programme and found that it helped him Yeah. So I started to sit to look at doing a taking a different approach. And I referred the referral to the pain management programme at Albury Wodonga and was accepted in oh wouldn't did my intake interview so you give You put your referral in the new few months later, you get called up to have an intake assessment. And that was a lengthy four hour process where you get to speak to a physio, occupational therapists, psychologists, practice nurse doctor, get all the information together. And in that process, I started to think this, this is not for me, I can't do anything, I can't manage this. So we're getting me to move and walk and Ben and stuff that I couldn't do. I mean, think about urban lying down for 20 years and couldn't do anything without being in extreme pain. And so I was starting to question, my ability to make any change and wondering whether this programme could help me. And at that point, the, the occupational therapist said to me, Look, I want you to hold your hands out at shoulder height and just kept them up. And when you can't hold them up any longer, put them down. So I, I had a wry smile on my face and thought he would go. And so hold them up. And 10 minutes later, he looks at his watch, he says, Trevor, you've broken all the land speed records are meant to keep them up here here until you drop, but you're not even breaking into a sweat. So let's move on to the next thing. And it's an interesting example of what happened in my head at that point, and, and what the importance of context is. So for someone that just couldn't move at all, how is it that he can hold his arms up and not drop them? Well, the thing is, I play the flute, and I played it for 40 years. And so holding my arms up is just normal. And what went on in my head at that point was a little light went on, and said, Oh, this is interesting. If you use your body, it's shows that it can be a bit strong. Whereas everything else was seen through the lens of I can't do this, I can't do that. I can't do this. I can't do that. And yet there was this one thing that I could do. So I ended up going into the programme. And when you do your assessment, they say would you like to go on a short waitlist, or all the normal waitlist and I know I was unemployed or living at home on my own. I said, the Elgin salt waitlist. So did the assessment on the Wednesday. On the Friday, they rang me up and said be here by 12 o'clock on Sunday. So bang, I was into the course. Now went into the course thinking this is a whole lot of rubbish. And I was quite sceptical. And you know, I mean, I tried everything else. But I also went with with the attitude. Well, you given what the doctors had asked you to do the very best shot possible on her and put you in more pain than ever, and less function. So I might as well give what this mobs asking me to do a red hot go and see what happens. Yep. And that was pretty much the turning point. Because the programme is not just about pain education. And it is based on really good evidence that take the material that they use from the best people in the world. And the most up to date understanding of what's best practice. But it's not just talking about it. So you get up in the morning, you have breakfast, you with a group of C stay there, you stay there to live in programme for a week. Okay. And so you start out meeting and being with people who have similar hiring experience, then you go to the facility from we where the accommodation is, and the first thing you do is a stretch. So we were stretching for about 10 minutes, everything that can bend and stretch is stretched. And then you go for a walk. Yeah. And I started being able to walk you know a kilometre in a lot of pain. But each day we do this and you do a little bit more each day and I record how far you go and what your time is gently over a period of three weeks you're increasing stuff. So it's not just saying to some When all you know, moving is good for you, motion is lotion, it's about doing and experiencing. So that was the, my introduction to the programme was, you know, starting to do things quite differently.

Robbie Frawley:

And you're in quite a supportive environment by leaving there. So you can't kind of tap out because they're going to be saying, Come on, Trevor, let's go. We're going for this walk.

Trevor Barker:

Yeah, yeah, they work with you quite well. And so, you know, we're learning about mindfulness, we're learning about meditation, we're learning about how an oversensitive pines system can be retrained. And it's not just learning about it in your head. It's doing it Yeah. And as you do it. So over the three weeks, that I was in the programme, or came off my opioid medication, and my goal was to be able to come off one medication, reduce it, and I discovered that while I was reducing it, and increasing different things, that my pain was actually coming down. And quite, I was quite surprised about that. And then I was taking this medication, and it really wasn't doing a whole lot, because I was still in pain. But it was a safety net. Yeah. But we pulled that away, took it away and increased other things.

Robbie Frawley:

And then when you say other things, you mean movement,

Trevor Barker:

movement, mindfulness, retraining the pain system, so calming it down dealing with stress, because there is a direct relationship between the amount of stress and that you have in your life, and the intensity of your pain. Okay, so if you're able to turn down and dial down stress, then you're also turning down and dialling down home.

Robbie Frawley:

And what was the mode of turning down the stress that they taught you or that worked for you?

Trevor Barker:

Well, there are a few things that worked for me, the first thing was just really understanding that pain doesn't have a direct relationship with tissue damage, yes, that you can have pain. And particularly with chronic pain, you're gonna have intense pain, and no tissue damage, the tissue damage is actually healed. It's the nervous system, that's an age that's overactive. That that is firing off still trying to protect you still trying to protect me. And that when I understand that, that I'm safe to move that this is good for me. And I can have friends and fun and laughter and all of that as a way of putting to one side stress and danger, yay. And increasing safety. And then that tips the balance and almost gives a positive outlook to life. And we're what ended up happening after doing the programme left Victoria and went to Perth three weeks, my daughter lives over there. I spent three weeks with with her and her family doing lots of walking lots of family activities, not being isolated, but being with family that really made a big difference added to the three weeks of the programme. So put all that stuff together and started to have more confidence in being able to manage pain myself, rather than rely on a medical approach which had completely failed me. Yeah.

Robbie Frawley:

So it sounds like they were just able to give you confidence that that the pain you're experiencing was almost not justified and that you were actually you were safe to go for this walk and you you didn't need to be fearful that you're going to be hurting yourself. Is that fair to say? Oh

Trevor Barker:

yeah, it's it's pretty accurate. Um, pain is always real. And you know, we're still in a lot of a lot of pain at times, you know, as instilling time after during the course. However, it was not tissue damage. So you know, I had sore calves for example walking it wasn't the pain wasn't indicating that my tenants had ripped off the mine and whereas prior I was you know, really worried about and catastrophizing and, and seeing myself as being disabled and you know, because of the pain yeah

Robbie Frawley:

Can I ask another question you touched on? They taught you about mindfulness? Can you again talk to like, what did they actually? Because people talk about mindfulness a lot and how beneficial it is, what did that actually mean for you? What did they teach you at that time? And what? What did that look like for you,

Trevor Barker:

that involves just slowing down. And being with what is now, you know, we're sitting in my dining room, which is looking like a rainforest here, environment here. And I can come out here after work, grab a cup of coffee, sit down with my wonderful wife. Now, Kai, tell a bit more of that story later. But just be with and accept how things are now. Rather than fight them, and create more stress. So accepting how things are, and not having that internal battles. Even

Robbie Frawley:

if you're feeling some pain, rather than trying to fight the fact you had pain just going, okay, my back's sore. But I'm here, surrounded by all these plants,

Trevor Barker:

and not worrying about it. You know, I've, I've just started a new job. I'm doing stuff that 10 years ago, would be seen as catastrophic to someone with low back pain, yeah. And Danger, danger, danger. And yet, you know, I'm sitting in a, you know, comfortable chair here, not feeling any pain. And people would say, Well, bad posture, sitting for a long period of time. All the stuff that you do at work is, you know, the reason for your pain. Well, that's not Yeah. And being aware of that, and just sitting with it, not fighting. To me, mindfulness is, is just taking time out to be in a different place, that it's similar to meditation. But it's, it's more just creating a new normal way, you're not in that internal battle all the time, just accepting.

Robbie Frawley:

The reason I'm asking that is that point, you've been in excruciating pain on all sorts of painkillers and doing less and less for 20 years. And then in the space of three weeks, doing this course where I mean, it sounds like you're going for short walks, though. How many other people were on the course with

Trevor Barker:

you a little bit six on the course. And it was from, you know, eight in the morning till six at night. There was more, there was lots lots of aerobic stuff. We were doing water, warm water, Exercise and Movement. Yes. We were doing a bit of crossing the midline above shoulder height, which is a particular movement that is a brain retraining movement,

Robbie Frawley:

to when you say What do you mean? Like so

Trevor Barker:

just taking your left hand? Yes, and lifting it up over the shoulder and across the right side, over your head, over your head and to the other side, okay, and then putting it down and doing the right, the finger up over the head? And what does that do? What that does, is very interesting that Dave Butler taught me this in or explained it in 2008, when pain revolution came to Aubrey and he spoke about this they researchers discovered that people with chronic low back pain when they have a flare up that the whole brain is involved and so it's flashing light red Christmas tree lights just going off. And rather than it being just one part of the brain, it just starts one part of the brain and just cascades cross very quickly in the whole brains going off which is involved in the whole body which sort of explains why when I went for a massage therapists were asked me how it was I'd say my nose is okay today because don't bother asking him about the rest of my body. It's just in pain. And and so when this when your brains going off like this, and just flashing like a Christmas tree. What they discovered was crossing the midline above shoulder height. sabotage the brains of ability to recruit itself and golf that way. And when Dave Butler explained this to me, I thought, wow, the physio therapist that at the time programme was getting us to walk sideways across the pool while we did this movement up, up above our heads both ways. Yeah. And also you guess, what are you doing? And he didn't explain why he did that. Okay, there's

Robbie Frawley:

a lot of science behind it. Yes.

Trevor Barker:

And it makes a difference. And, wow, there's one thing everybody can do every day, just do it a few times a day, whenever you're having a cup of tea, or whatever you do. And you're tricking yourself.

Robbie Frawley:

Okay. So there were a whole lot of I mean, it's just, it's quite amazing. Because to listen to it, it sounds like after such a sustained period, where you were actively looking for answers and seeing all these specialists and doing all this, these things and taking all these meds and getting worse. And then in relatively, incredibly short time period of doing what seems really kind of quite simple and basic, it sounds like was a real turning point. It

Trevor Barker:

was a real turning point. And it was the start of being on a different road. The road that I'd been on for 20 years was looking to the doctors for an answer. Yep. And getting him to fix it. The new role was on was understanding that pain was more than just issues with tissues that involve psychological and social aspects. Yes. And those things I could do something about for myself. Yep. And as I did that, the amount of stress and pain in my life went down. I've got more confidence, and then I began to be able to build on that to do more and more.

Robbie Frawley:

Fantastic. Did it just continue? Like, how long ago now? Is that that you entered that Aubrey pain clinic?

Trevor Barker:

That was in September, October 2016. Okay. And it's now 2021. Yeah, so five years, five years? Yep. Yep, five years ago,

Robbie Frawley:

what's happened in that subsequent five years?

Trevor Barker:

Well, we went over to Perth for three weeks, had a lovely time as a daughter and her family. And at that stage, I was walking, you know, eight to 10 k's a day, it's a quick increase. And doing a lovely walk from her place in South Perth down to the Swan River along the river and up past the zoo. And you know, we're talking. See, I'm in Canada type. And it's flat. There's no hills. Yeah. But in South Perth is downhill and uphill. And so I'm doing all this and having great time with grandkids, whereas prior to that I'd been quite isolated, really not very connected with family for all of all of the reasons of breaking down a marriage. And so what's happened since then or did that. And I've started to have a different outlook on life, having more friends, getting involved in things that have meaning for me. And then after after starting to go down a different, different road. I heard about pain revolution. I'm not quite sure how it or came to hear about them. But I heard that we're coming to Albury, which is not too far from where I live and what's pain revolution? Yep. So pain revolution is a group of they have a real passion for educating rural Australians about pain science and what people like me can do to have a different life. And so I offered I've got a bit of expertise in community engagement. So I contacted them and I said, Well, I'd be happy to help get the word out around the Audrey area. Would you like a hand with that? Nice idea. That'd be great. So I hit the pavement and walked all or around Albury Wodonga handing out brochures contacting community groups and we filled the venue we had over 160 people for to two events. And I later heard that that was more people than turned up in Sydney and Canberra. So we had a pretty good impact. And I met a lot of you Joe, we're pretty well. And of course I got to meet you know, Tasha Stanton and Laura Mosley and David Butler and and who are these people? Are these people really are The leading lights in my view in the world when it comes to understanding pain, chronic pain, and their pain researchers, scientists, physio therapist, and their Australian have right here in our backyard treasures from England I believe. But they've studied and worked together at University of South Australia. And they have a very unique way of understanding the complexity of all of this and words that you know, the biggest word over uses catastrophizing and, you know, they go on with these crappy words and, and, you know, explain to clinicians just how the nervous system works and how we can work with that and to create change. Yes, that makes a difference to people like myself, well, they've got the unique ability of being able to understand that complexity, and talk straight talk, okay, which is small words, and easy to understand, which is not what I'm into. And explain it in ways that can be practically applied, like for example, crossing the midline above shoulder height, well, who the thought and I talked about that all the time and in my work now. So that what they do at Pine revolution is the do a couple of things that they have a charity bike ride every 12 months. And when they came to Aubrey, I got to meet them. And after the bike ride, lorrimer Mosley said to me, I want to talk to you. And he offered me a job, which was fantastic. So here I am, halfway through 2018, starting to work for pine revolution and starting to look ahead to Tasmania. What was Tasmania Tasmania was in March 2019. This is another tour, okay? It's 10 days in Tasmania, going around talking holding community events for clinicians, and also the general public, where they talk about pain science and how, what we can do to help treat ourselves and by understanding and changing our approach. Now, that was a very sick, I'm talking about that this because it was a very significant tour. And I've got to sit alongside Dr. Butler and I was a sponge, I was taking everything, you know, I was learning all about this stuff. And at the same time, sharing my story and talking at some of these events, and engaging with the community with community engagement work. So we did the tour. And it was there's a funny story I'd like to tell. We went to there were three community events on the same day in Hobart at the end of the tour. And Glenorchy was one of those events and, and Dave Butler and myself are talking along with a couple of other people. And you can imagine we're in an aged care centre. So, you know, this is interesting, I was thinking about getting into one of those joints, you know, a couple of years earlier than that. And we're upstairs and there's about 80 people in the room, and 60 of them were it plus in a wheelchairs and sitting down and and, and Dave Butler starts talking about the pharmacy cabinet in our brain and talking about what hormones we have what chemicals we can release to help treat pain and soften iron. And he talks about dopamine and endorphins and other things gain big words. And he said to the group, what do you think? gets this gets all those happy hormones going and he's waving his hands around. His now answer Sosa's yells out, puts his hands over his head. He says, Well, what about six? And all of a sudden, I'm sitting there trying to be prim and proper or the straight facts, thinking to myself, I haven't had much of that the last few years. And all of a sudden the old folks start giggling and laughing and not nodding their heads, you know, what's, what's going on? And I started thinking because I'd been so traumatised and distressed from from really bad marriage, that I'd sworn off relationship ever again. Just in order to protect myself And, you know, Dave was unaware of what was going on in my head. The short story is that I met Kai in May. So it was only eight weeks between the tour and when Kai and I met, and

Robbie Frawley:

you credit Dave's comments with contributing...?

Trevor Barker:

Absolutely credit(them). They've been here to our house and after we're married. So that was my in October 2019 Kay and I were married.

Robbie Frawley:

Congratulations

Trevor Barker:

That was early October and, and Dave and Jules came across from South Australia to do an explained pine course in Albury, a couple of weeks after the marriage, so we had them here for lunch. And I went off and did the explained pain course as well. So you, when you think about how this stuff has changed my life, it's changed it, you know, amazing way. So I'm now in a relationship with a very loving, generous woman who Kai and I do life together, we support each other. We both got our challenges, physical stuff that's going on. But together, we're a really good time. And we enjoy life. And we get through what life throws at us together. And it's really good.

Robbie Frawley:

Yeah, absolutely. And it sounds like I mean, when you said your response, just just travelling on this tour. So you I guess you've just been picking up all of this, your education around pain science, and what was going on the fact that you didn't need to be catastrophizing, as you sort of said earlier, and just your knowledge of pain science and how you could get better, I guess, was just growing and growing.

Trevor Barker:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was learning from the best people in the world. And they were listening to me, as always talking about stuff you're experiencing, that we're picking up the phone and saying, We Trevor, can we have a chat about this? Yes. And so they're learning from me, I'm learning from them. Yeah. And it's quite affirming, and encouraging to have that sort of relationship going on. And to be able to understand and have confidence in the fact that making change is where it's at. Yes. So we stick with the narrow little road that we're on, then we're going to, that's what we're going to experience and, and the thing with chronic pain is that it's worse than that. Because the longer it goes on, the worse it gets. So you might say have a five out of 10, on average pain experience, and you don't make any change for two years later, it's five out of 10, it's not relevant anymore, it's now six out of 10. And then another couple of years, it's a seven out of 10. And it just creeps up on you and gets worse and worse. So it is really important to make change. And and see that we can slowly dial down what's going on. Yeah.

Robbie Frawley:

Looking back now, what would you say were the most beneficial elements to your recovery?

Trevor Barker:

Yeah, that that really is a good question, Robbie. Probably three or four really key points that together really helped me take a different approach. And, and the first thing was the example of me holding my arms up and just discovering for myself that me getting into doing things for myself is really a good thing. So that I have ability in my arms because I'm using them. Whereas I don't have ability in the rest of my body because I was lying down and protecting myself. There's a difference between active and passive treatments. Yes. And passive treatments are those treatments that people are doing things to me. So you know, massage and physio were long on a table, car, practice my therapy, all of that. It pretty much pills, injections, those sorts of treatments are all passive is when something's someone's doing something to me, as opposed to active which is scientific truth, you're strong, you're capable, get moving. Motion is lotion. And when you're involved in that space, of being active rather than passive, you're moving forward. And it's making a difference to your health and well being. And it's making a difference to your pain. So that was one concept so

Robbie Frawley:

active with you meaning using active strategies rather than passive strategies. Absolutely. Yep. Yeah, looking for things that are being offered or that you can do where you're the driver of them. That's

Trevor Barker:

right. Yeah, that I can incorporate into every day. So, you know, we've talked about doing crossing the midline, above shoulder height, that's a agnate. thing. Going for walk to the post office, stretching, they're all active things going to water aerobics, and incorporating, incorporating movement into my life. Sure. So changing my focus from people doing things to me, to me doing things for myself, was really a very important change, that the other key concept that really is important to think about is how when you're in chronic pain, patients pain is not an accurate measure of tissue damage. Yes. And I thought that because I'm in so much damn pain is got to be something catastrophic going on in my body. Yes. And then when pain goes up a pig, oh, my goodness, my condition is worsening on degenerate domande, a degenerative condition, I'm going to be in serious trouble here. Whereas what's really pertinent for people to grasp is that pain is not an accurate measure of tissue damage is not a direct relationship there. That's a really important concept is to get a really good grasp, started to understand that I could move more, even if my pain went up, it didn't mean that I was, it didn't actually mean you tissue damage here.

Robbie Frawley:

And that was a concept we picked up from, from Aubrey, and with the pain revolution. Okay, so as you know, powerful

Trevor Barker:

that that was really important. Another important concept is that our pain, chronic pain is about psychological, social and medical issues. And that there's a treatment out there that focuses in on the social and psychological treatments. It's called dim sim therapy. So, and dim sim stands for danger in me, safety in me. And it really talks about the relationship between all the stress that's in our life, as compared to all of the active, fun, enjoyable, safe things we can do for ourselves. So if we have, if we change that balance between barebone lots of stress to lower stress, and no self care, no fun enjoyment to more fun enjoyment, self care, safety stuff, then we are going to alter the relationship between the s protecting nature, which we're on high alert all the time. And we're going to calm our state down to the point that we're also calming down not only to our psychological distress, we're calming down pain.

Robbie Frawley:

And just to clarify, so DIM-SIM, it's a acronym used by pain revolution So DIM is

Trevor Barker:

'danger in me. Yes. And SIM is 'safety in m

Robbie Frawley:

And what's the idea behind that?'.

Trevor Barker:

So the the idea is really to help people think about what elements in their life create stress, danger, time type, thinking and beliefs.

Robbie Frawley:

Okay, so not literal danger, but sort of the perception of danger.

Trevor Barker:

Yes, yes. Now, it could be actual danger of in domestic violence relationship, for example, then there'd be a lot of stress, there'd be a lot of danger going on. And that doesn't just impact on your personal safety, but it impacts on your mindset and your psychological well being and your relationships. So the dim sim therapy is about helping people to think about what elements in their life are creating stress and danger. Yep, thinking. And then. And for people with chronic pain, most of that's easy too. Understand what are some examples of example might be, for me. Movement was avoided, I lie down all the time with hot water bottles on my back. I wanted to avoid flare ups. Yes, the thinking was if I move, I'm going to hurt and injure myself, I'm going to be in more pain. So there was a real danger in me about moving. Sure. And using my back bending, twisting, lifting. Whenever I had pain in my back, it was because I've bent too far, or I hadn't been lying down for long

Robbie Frawley:

enough in the day. So how do you convert that into

Trevor Barker:

what I did was I understood or got some help. And I understood that moving was a good thing for me that there was a safe thing for me or wasn't going to do tissue damage, that I could pace myself and slowly increase the level of activity, which is a reasonable way of starting to go from zero to hero doing a whole lot more than what I was doing. So I could slowly increase activity. Understand that even if my pain did increase, or wasn't causing tissue damage, so

Robbie Frawley:

And how did you like have that? Where did you get that confidence from? That it wasn't causing tissue?

Trevor Barker:

From a good assessment from a physio therapist who explained that? No, your back's fine, strong, be capable? Yes, it's okay. You're safe to move in. In fact, when you move your joints to lubricate they get. Yeah, motion is lotion.

Robbie Frawley:

Is that something like, given the fact you'd seen a lot of specialists and medical professionals prior and you obviously hadn't got that message? But then, in the old resetting, you were getting, I guess, the right message about what you were safe to do. And that movement is good. Is that difficult to find, I guess, medical people who are trained in this and that are going to give you the right messages to give you safety in me. If and I guess to know that you're safe to move,

Trevor Barker:

I think this is a fundamental flaw with the medical profession, in that they are problem focused. What is wrong with this person in front of me? Rather than what are they capable of? what's working well. And the thought that they're telling me they're in a lot of pain, so there's got to be something wrong. There's something wrong might be, there could be a whole lot of stress. So look, it's worthwhile doing a proper thorough assessment to make sure that, you know, we all the red flags, yes. off the table. And that being the case, then the medical profession, if it continues to go down with offering pills and more investigations like that they did for me, then that's not going to resolve the social and psychological aspects to this pain that's going on. Yeah. So that is the risk. At the moment, most people that go to their doctor will get a biomedical focus, rather than a more holistic approach that also looks at the social and emotional. And that's an issue with the Proficient. It's an issue with Taiwan. And it takes time to hear someone's story and context, and unpack everything else that's going on and contributing factors. So when you sit down in front of a doctor, it very quickly goes, What's wrong? What can I do? Yes, rather than let's talk about your whole life.

Robbie Frawley:

So for anyone listening, I don't know, how do they how would they find someone who? I don't know, he's gonna provide, I guess, the advice and

Trevor Barker:

different approach. Yeah, yeah. So it's worthwhile asking around. You know, my first approach is, do you know any friends that have had a different type of experience? Where did they go? Who did they talk to? Now, we're not talking about trying to find the guru that's going to fix you? Because there are plenty of people out there that say, oh, go to this person or go to that person. To me, it's more about the approach. Because the approach has to be bringing me back to a self management perspective. What can you do, Trevor to help yourself? Yes. If anybody is saying to you, I will fix you and you've got chronic pain. Then run away because the fixes within yourself. If they're saying to you, I will help you understand what's going on and give you some sense strategies that you can apply to your life to improve your situation, then that's the right person. Yeah. So you can very quickly work that out when you're talking to someone, if they say, tell us about your injury, show us your X rays, or you are first starting to suggest that we get another x ray, another MRI or a CT scan, then they're looking for issues with tissues, if you've had long standing pine, and it's very unlikely that it's going to be issues with tissues, yes, my approach now is to deal with this have a look at the social and psychological aspects to my life, and work on those and see how that shifts pain.

Robbie Frawley:

Yeah. And that's, that's a, I guess, the view that's been formed and been learnt from, you know, these people that are at the forefront of pain science globally by the sounds of

Trevor Barker:

it is, it's also not being dismissive of issues with tissues. Yeah. I mean, it's important to have a good understanding that, okay, I don't have a broken bone here, or, yeah, but we know that bones heal in six weeks. So if you've had pain for 20 years, it's not about a broken pain, or broken bone. So it really is just having an accurate understanding of the fact that tissues have healed. And if that's the case, then let's find people that can offer really good social and psychological support. Now that comes in the form of an occupational therapist, for example, who has a really good understanding of the stuff. physio therapists that might have pain accreditation, yep. A psychologist that has, you know, training in this space with iron sights. And how you find those people is really talking to friends, family, others that have experienced a different approach.

Robbie Frawley:

Yep. If you did encounter someone who was, I guess, in a similar space to you? Is there any? Are there any books you would recommend to them? Videos, you'd suggest that they watch to, I guess, help them along on their journey?

Trevor Barker:

Yeah, well, you know, I've mentioned Dave Butler and Lorimer Moseley a few times, and why I like them is that they're very good at it at explaining very complex concepts. In a way that makes sense to me. Yeah. And if it makes sense to me, it'll make sense to anyone. Yeah. And that's really important. We don't want to scare people off with big words. We don't want to have them being thinking that we're at the end of the world. We want people to really be able to step through what's going on, and what can I do to make a difference to that? Yes. So almost anything that David Butler or Lorimer, Moseley do online? Is some very good lectures available there. If people Google MSK, Australia, then there's two lectures online there that are professionally filmed. Both have one from Dave Butler, one from Laura, mostly. That's a good starting point. Okay. Yep. How long can I get for better now? I can have Cora. Yeah. And then Alison Sims wrote a book painful stories. That's a series of stories about people that have had long term chronic pain, and, and what they've done to help trigger. Yes. And it's quite informative, and a very good book.

Robbie Frawley:

Okay. Yep. Beautiful. What do you think was the most worthwhile investment you made for your recovery? And that could be an investment of time, investment, money, effort, anything?

Trevor Barker:

Yeah, having the courage to try new stuff, and doing it. So, you know, instead of being fixated on a particular path, and a particular way of doing something, being prepared to change that approach, and having the courage to do something different. A prime example of that really came when I was prepared to drop my thinking that being in relationship would be danger and and have the courage to try again, and discover that being in a loving caring supportive relationship is the best thing I could possibly do to treat my pain. It's might sound a bit strange, but really having the security of a secure loving relationship does change the balance of danger in me, and safety unmade. So my safety in May is really at a very high level, because of being prepared to make that change and get into a loving relationship and be part of that.

Robbie Frawley:

And David's comments had kind of instigated some thought,

Trevor Barker:

yeah, a different perspective. Yes, someone else's comments had provided a different perspective, just like my friend making comments about the programme gave a different perspective. Yes. Which opened me up to the possibility that things might be different. Yep. That it doesn't have to be on that I'm not on a railway track headed down a particular road, I can choose to do things differently. And that creates change. Yes. And so, you know, that's, that's really, what all of that did was changed my thinking in perspective. Okay. Now, when you're living alone, and you're isolated, and you're not talking to people, you don't have that perspective. You see things, how you see them? Yeah.

Robbie Frawley:

Do you have? Or have you had any particular mantras or quotes, which you found particularly helpful on your journey?

Trevor Barker:

Yeah, I think the main thing really is that we're in the change business. If we get stuck on one road, and we're not prepared to look at a different road, then we're just gonna keep experiencing more of the same. So it's not a major as such, but really just continually thinking, What can I change? What needs to change? And, and that, to me is really important, just accepted things. If we want things to be different, then let's have the courage to try something different. And give it a go. And if it doesn't work out, we've given it a go, we'll find out some more information and try something different next door,

Robbie Frawley:

like are there any bad recommendations or advice you've heard or that you've received during your experience?

Trevor Barker:

So the over arching period of my life has been, you know, 20 years of trying a particular approach that had a whole lot of advice that was just wrong, okay. And it comes from the industry that believes that because someone's in pain, there's something wrong was the body his issues with tissues? And, and even like today, that advice will continue to roll out every day in doctors rooms around the world, that if someone's in pain, we give them a pill, we send them off for an x ray or a CT scan or an MRI scan, we inject them with this, we do that. So the bad advice comes from that belief that chronic pain is a biomedical approach. And you know, doctors and physios have red flags. And those red flags will be a series of questions they ask themselves when I meet someone for the first time, to establish that there's not an underlying condition that if it's treated in a particular way, is going to cause more damage. Because we're helping Bogle and for me, patients can have their own red flag. So instead of looking at one piece of advice, that's bad advice, we can ask yourself one question. And that question is, is the doctor or the physio or whoever was saying, looking at my situation as a biomedical problem? And how we work that out is, are they saying, You need a new pill? You need a bigger pill. You need an X ray, you need an MRI scan or an ultrasound. Or I'm going to do something to you to treat your pain. That's a biomedical thing and if so, okay, if they're offering that to you, and you've got chronic pain, that's bad. Yeah. That's a red flag for me. That gives me permission to run out the door and not come back.

Robbie Frawley:

Okay. And that sounds pretty standard.

Trevor Barker:

That's yeah. Which is the sad, sad thing, that in 95% of the cases, that's what's going to be dished up to you. Yes. So the bad bit of advice would be, do not go. Do not keep seeking advice from a biomedical focus because it won't resolve pain at all.

Robbie Frawley:

Yeah. And when it's just the term bio, medical focus, what does that mean? And what is the bio sosu? What the other one you described?

Trevor Barker:

Yeah. So look, what this generally accepted. Model or framework for looking at chronic, or persisting pain, yes, which has three elements to a biological, which is what's going on with our bodies, social stuff, which is our relationships, and psychological well being as thought processes, how we feel about ourselves. And so if we apply that thinking, and somebody is only offering one element, then it's not a complete picture to it stuck missing. Yeah. And so for me, what happened to me was I continually sought answers from the doctors who continually dished up a bio medical treatment system that failed to explain that psychological and social factors also contribute to pain. Yeah. And failed to help me develop an approach to help myself. Had they done that, or wouldn't have had 20 years of chronic pain? Yes. Yeah.

Robbie Frawley:

We may repeat something here, but that's okay. Since your injury, what new belief behaviour or habit as most improved your life?

Trevor Barker:

Yeah. I just, I just think it's a growing confidence that I can do things for myself that will will make a difference. Yeah. So a good example of a habit is on our walk to the post office every day, yeah. So I could drive or drive past the post office two or three times a week. Okay, these are these stop the car and pick up the mail instead, or walk every day, and have a chat to the people that are at the post office come home. And I'm moving. And I'm adding to how much movement I'm doing a day. Yes, in the past five years, have gone from doing very, very little to, you know, post the pain management programme. Now, not being afraid of bending down and picking stuff up of carrying things of helping people. And it said, D catastrophizing and fear of movement and stuff that have let go. And so by incorporating movement, and more activity, that's become normal now. Yeah. Whereas what was normal was, people would see me lying down on the hot water bar on the back. Now, I did that for many hours every day. I don't do that a rule now.

Robbie Frawley:

And if you do have pain flare ups, I'm not sure whether you do you don't. Now, what do you do?

Trevor Barker:

That's a good question. Because in October on the sixth of October 2019, all America? Yes. And about four weeks before the wedding, I had a flare up. Okay. My right leg that's responsible for the accelerator pedal and the brake pedal, pretty importantly, stopped working. couldn't drive, it was in that much pain that I couldn't put enough pressure on the brake pedal. And honestly, I do have hydraulic brakes, so it doesn't need much, but I just could not drive. Yep. And I hit the panic button because Oh, my goodness, you know, we've got four weeks to go to the wedding. What's going on here? So what I did differently this time was that I found a friend. Yes. So a friend found a close friend of mine and she said, Trevor, do you think you might be a bit stressed? So do I hit my forehead? Tired I were cases Schiff and so on. He was organising the catering for the wedding. And we had a whole lot of friends that were going to help contribute. Yeah, someone's going to bring a salad, someone who's going to do this someone was going to, but we had to pull it all together and plan it. And, you know, ships are great at being able to serve something up at or nothing in five minutes, but plan a big event and involve other people. It's, you know, so it wasn't me the stress going on, but I hadn't realised that I was just going through the motions of trying to get all this coordinated, and coordination and planning is something that I do and I don't cope terribly well, when it's all disorganised. And so, when this friend mentioned to me, asked me the question, you think you might be a bit stress just the realising that, yeah, that's going on. Maybe that's having a bit to do with this league. So I went off and sort of physio, who I know has good pain science stuff, he got me moving. And I understood that I wasn't causing tissue, it wasn't a tissue damage thing that was going on, it was a flare up. And so that took the heat out of it, calm down. And I was able to walk down the aisle with no drama. Yes, so that was good.

Robbie Frawley:

Could you describe your life day to day now, and to contrast it with how we started? Also just write your quality of life? You know, how we'd write that now?

Trevor Barker:

Yeah, well, the easy thing, the quality of life question is, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. So you know, married him a new relationship. We, we have a completely different life together than than I had before. So that's quality of life is great. What's different for me is that I've started to reflect back on the changes happening more often last five years, and, and step it up another level. And what that means is that I'm now doing stuff today, there's no way I would have even considered doing a few years ago, yes. So I'm not worrying about driving a bit more than I used to drive or sitting. But we've been sitting for a couple of hours, and it's not been a drama. And I've just taken on a full time job. I love the work. It's working with people doing service coordination in the disability field. It's also working with complex clients. So there is any better level of stress and drama in what's going on in their life. You know, life's very challenging for those participants. And I understand that, and that has the risk of drifting into escalating drama and stress in my life, just just by, you know, taking on what's going on for them might change what's going on for me, absolutely. And so I'm working in an office, I'm sitting, talking on the phone a lot. There's no way I would have considered doing what I'm doing now in terms of sitting in a computer for a long period of time and other stuff a few years ago. But we now understand through pain science, that the mechanics of how we sit and move doesn't contribute to pain at all. So you know, this whole thing of you got to have the right posture. So I can take that knowledge and test it out. Because you know, I don't have the perfect posture and don't even think about it. I just do what I need to do. Now I've felt what's been interesting, I've felt pine in my low back again. But it hasn't been all the time. It's fine, occasional. So just keeping an eye on that, just playing with that. And being confident that I know what to do. And being relaxed about it, but also testing out how much can I increase my activity without causing catastrophic failure of focus? In the old days, I would have thought that my back would be completely stuffed and I'd be you In our, which would determine me lying down and staying still rather than giving new things that go? Yeah. So that's where things are moving for me. And it's working out

Robbie Frawley:

any next steps. So things are still sort of pushing for

Trevor Barker:

the big, big issue that we talked about for about red flags. In clinicians, I would love for consumers or people experiencing persisting pain to really get that and to apply it, so they see trouble coming to run away. So Why trouble coming? I mean, somebody that's going to give them an approach that's just purely biomedical focused. If they see that far enough, off, they can almost not pick up the phone and make an appointment. Or they can ask some questions and go, Whoa, I'm not going there. Where else can I go? I would love for more people to use that. Which is going to mean that clinicians are gonna have to start thinking a bit more about what they offer to pay people that have persisting pain. Because it is complex work, we have complexity in our lives, it's challenging. It requires a different approach. But if we're feeding come about making a difference in people's lives and helping them to manage their pain themselves, then we have to put that investment in as clinicians and give give it time to work out. Otherwise, we're just going to have someone for 20 years. I mean, I've got a weekly message. I haven't had a message for five years. Yeah. Has it seen an increase in pain? Not at all. On$6,000 A year better off, I'm$30,000. better off not having that Trent, that wasn't making any difference to my pain. But I gave it a good red hot guy when I did. Yeah. Yeah, it was nice. But in terms of giving me better function, it didn't work out. So I would love to see people be a little bit more wise in the choices that are make when when it comes to getting help for their persisting pain. Yeah. And I would love clinicians to adapt and change what they deliver. And if they can't deliver social and psychological aspects, I'd really hoped that they have an understanding of that. And so what I'm offering is not going to help that person might help somebody else with a different problem. But I've got good people I can refer to Yes, rather than take it on. And just put someone in a holding pattern where their pain increases and doesn't resolve. Yeah.

Robbie Frawley:

All right, any final thoughts? For those listening for anyone who might be still in that dark place and feeling a bit trapped? What would you say to them?

Trevor Barker:

What I would say is that chronic pain is complicated. It does put you in a poor place with your thinking. That let's be real about that. It's tough. It's relentless. It can take over your whole life It took over my life. Yeah. I made a decision to have a life even if it meant more pain. Because I was in pain anyway. And what I discovered was that by having a life of reduced pain, so my message to someone in that dark place is that yes, to start with our respect and understand completely how tough it is. That I believe there is a way out. And instead of staying isolated and alone, reach out and and start connecting with people who can journey with you and help you through because doing it on your own isn't a good career move. I tried that. Nearly finished me off. I'm glad that I learned some different, why really, and a net different way can make a difference not only to your life, but also G and pine.

Robbie Frawley:

Fantastic. Thank you very much, Trevor. It's been a real pleasure catching up and listening to your story. And it's fantastic again, just to sort of to see That contrast between where you were, which just sounds unimaginable. And yeah, it's hard to imagine sort of seeing much hope at that point. And then just seeing where you are now and, and everything that you're doing, not only in your own life and with your beautiful, new bride, K bird, but also in how are you contributing to other people's improvement of their pain in their lives. So thank you very much.

Trevor Barker:

Thanks, Robbi, it's been great to sit down a d just think about all thi stuff again. So appreciate what you're doing, it's won

Robbie Frawley:

Hey, guys, it's Robbie again. I'll have hownotes on everything. We alked about this episode on the odcast website. There's a link n the podcast description, long with a full transcript. If ou find that easy to follow long, or to find what you need. do need to highlight that either I nor any of the people hat I've interviewed on this odcast are medical rofessionals. The advice and earnings which we share during ur discussions are not medical dvice, and should be considered nd reviewed in consultation ith a trusted medical rofessional prior to being cted upon. These are simply our earnings from our experiences. ake what is valuable, and leave he rest. Next episode, we'll hange things up. And I'll share y story of recovering from post oncussion syndrome. It took me ver seven years, but hopefully y sharing my learnings with ou, we can get you back to full ealth again in a fraction of hat time. Until then, I wish ou courage and energy on your wn journey forward. Thanks for istening