Robbie (Post Concussion Syndrome): Full Episode - Recovery from post concussion syndrome (PCS)

Episode 4: Full episode - Robbie Frawley - Recovery from post concussion syndrome (PCS)

In this episode I tell my story of recovering from post concussion syndrome (PCS). It took me 7 years to fully recover, but if I knew at the start everything that I know now, I believe it would have taken me only a fraction of this time and that’s why I want to share these learnings with you. I hope that they give you some hope and they help you in your own recovery.

My brilliant guest interviewer on this episode is Associate Professor Tasha Stanton. Tasha is the Osteoarthritis Research Theme Lead for IIMPACT in Health at the University of South Australia and a National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia Fellow. 

Tasha is a clinical pain neuroscientist with original training as a physiotherapist. Her research focusses on pain and she has a specific interest in pain education, osteoarthritis, low back pain, cortical body representation, somatosensation and body illusions using virtual and mediated reality. In short though, she’s one of the leading pain researchers globally, and it was ultimately through meeting Tasha and learning some lessons from her field of pain science that helped me to find the final steps back to 100%.

Full transcripts and show notes are available for each chapter on the podcast website: storiesofrecovery.buzzsprout.com

Robbie's recommendations:

• 13:00 - Find people who can help you and get a referral. I was lucky and was referred early by my GP to Grace McKellar Trauma Rehabilitation Centre in Geelong, 
• 16:26 - The team at Grace McKellar gave me a variety of management strategies which were important throughout my recovery. These included 'pacing' (breaking up tasks to do them in small bite size components and allowing time to recharge between them), reducing work (until I could grade back up), introducing mini breaks (again to recharge throughout the day), planning and graded re-acclimatisation of all activities,
• 36:47 - Find and read (or listen) to the book 'The Brain that Changes Itself - Norman Doidge),
• 46:07 - Crutches which I found helpful whilst in survival mode: 
  • Don't assess how you are each morning, just get up and get out the door for a quick 10min walk in nature...you can think about how you are afterward,
  • Don't forecast too far out - bring the focus right in close. Only think of the next immediate task in front of you, put everything beyond that out of your mind, 
  • Quotes help, such as "the only thing to fear, is fear itself" - Franklin Roosevelt, 
  • When you are struggling: "Be aware of where you are...and keep going",
  • Try meditation -  I like the calm app but keep trying them until you find one you like,
• 1:07:08 - Think about DIM-SIM Therapy - Tasha and I explain this in lots of detail,
• 1:14:20 - Explore the resources of the Pain Revolution and the book Explain Pain, 
• 1:32:36 - Find and develop a relationship with a good neuropsychologist and explore the possibility of your system being 'overprotective' - both 'consciously' & 'unconsciously', 
• 1:48:56 - Trust your gut instinct,
• 1:59:02 - Consider what 'might' be possible.

For more detailed show notes, see the individual chapter sections on the podcast website.

Chapters

• 0:00 Chapter 1 - Life, the accident & the weeks following
• 12:57 Chapter 2 - Treatment, management strategies and learning about 'neuroplasticity'
• 43:08 Chapter 3 - Searching for answers & things that helped along the way
• 1:10:37 Chapter 4 - Major learnings
• 1:45:44 Chapter 5 - Final learnings back to 100%

Transcript

Robbie Frawley: 0:25

Welcome to Stories of Recovery. My name is Robbie Frawley and on this podcast I interview people who have experienced and recovered from brain related conditions such as stroke, concussion, chronic pain and traumatic brain injury. We'll discuss their story and highlight the things which have been most beneficial and most important in their recovery. This might be specific treatments or medical professionals that were most crucial. It could be books, knowledge or advice which they were given or which they found along the way, or even particular habits, attitudes, or practices that helped them the most. If you or someone you care about is struggling to recover from one of these or another brain related condition, the podcast was really made with you in mind, I want you to know that others have been where you are now and that they have gotten better. You can recover and hopefully in the interviews that follow, you will hear a thing or two which resonate and which help you to do just that. So who am I? Well, I'm a young man who grew up in country Victoria, Australia and I've had a number of concussions growing up playing sport. After the last one, which was over seven years ago now, I developed something called post concussion syndrome. I'd never even heard of this. But it left me with ongoing fatigue, headaches, nausea, vertigo, cognitive fog, overwhelm, and sensitivity to impact. It had a really dramatic effect on my life and it took many years, much effort and great assistance from others to fully recover from it. Now that I am back to 100%, and again, have some surplus energy, I'd like to help you in any way I can to get you back to good health. My hope is that we can provide some light at the end of the tunnel for you and also give you some useful tips and tricks that might help you along the way. Now, one thing to remember is that the brain is a really marvellous thing. And you can and you will get better. I've left in as much of the context detail and information in these interviews as possible, which means they can be quite long, but they're split into key chapters to make it easier to listen. And to help you to focus on what you need to hear right now. And remember that you can pause and come back to the story in as many small bites as you need. Now, without further ado, let's jump into it. This episode is a bit different, in that it is my story. And so someone else is interviewing me. I'll introduce her now. Associate Professor Tasha Stanton is the Osteoarthritis research theme lead for IIMPACT in Health at the University of South Australia and a National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia fellow. She's a clinical pain neuroscientist with original training as a physio therapist. Her research focuses on pain, and she has a specific interest in pain education, osteoarthritis, low back pain, cortical body representation, Somatosensation and body illusions using virtual and mediated reality. In short, though, she is one of the leading pain researchers globally and it was ultimately through meeting Tasha and learning some lessons from her field of pain science that helped me to find the final steps back to 100%. Now I want to acknowledge upfront that whilst it took me over seven years to fully recover, and that that is probably not an enticing proposition for you, if I did know at the start, everything that I know now, I believe it would have taken me only a fraction of this time. And that's why I want to share these learnings with you. I hope that at the least they give you hope, and at the most help you recover. This conversation took place on the lens of the Kaurna people of the Adelaide plains, and I would like to acknowledge them as traditional owners of this land and pay respect to their elders past and present. I would also like to pay my respect to other Aboriginal language groups and other First Nations. I wish you courage and energy on your own journey forward. And I hope you enjoyed this long, sometimes tangential, interweaving conversation. Cheers

Tasha Stanton: 5:05

Ready to go?

Robbie Frawley: 5:05

I'm ready.

Tasha Stanton: 5:06

You're ready. All right, welcome there to all the listeners. You might not know who I am. I don't know who you are yet but my name is Tasha Stanton and I work as an associate professor at the University of South Australia. And I'm really excited today because I get to have the very wonderful opportunity to interview someone you do know, Robbie Frawley. And he, as you will have known has done other different interviews of various different people but he also comes to this with a really unique and powerful story himself. So welcome Robbie, thanks for letting me take over.

Robbie Frawley: 5:44

Thank you, Tasha. It's fantastic to be here and fantastic to see you and to be speaking with you.

Tasha Stanton: 5:50

Wonderful. So, Robbie, I think one of the things that you know, is really, really interesting and really powerful about all of these different things is hearing what people have gone through. But I guess before I want to go into that, can you tell me a little bit about, you know, who was Robbie? What was life like before, you know, you kind of underwent the experiences that you went through?

Robbie Frawley: 6:12

Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in southwestern Victoria on a sheep and cattle farm and so I lived a pretty active outdoor life. Always working after school on the farm and playing a lot of sport as you do in country areas.

Tasha Stanton: 6:29

What type of sports did you play?

Robbie Frawley: 6:31

What did I play? You name it, anything to do with the water I love, so surfing, water skiing, swimming. But then football, cricket basketball, no I didn't like cricket, I toyed with cricket and didn't keep going. Football, hockey, basketball, a little bit of boxing, snow skiing, running. You name it. Yeah. It's a big part of country life. And so then I had gone off to university and I'd studied civil engineering and I was working back in Warrnambool in a regional centre as a civil engineer. Yeah, just making the most of every moment. So I was loving surfing, I'd wake up before work and run down to the beach and go surfing and on a particularly good day, I could get in a surf before work, surf at lunchtime and then surf again after work. I'd be riding, I think I had just been training with the Warrnambool football club and a very vibrant social life and heading to Melbourne to catch up with mates down there. And heading up to the farm to help Mum and Dad or to see my family and catch up with friends. Yeah, it was very filled. But it was it was a good time.

Tasha Stanton: 7:56

It's a beautiful area as well. Very good choice. Tell me a little bit more than what what happened with your injury?

Robbie Frawley: 8:05

Sure. So it wasn't actually anything too spectacular. I'd had quite a number of concussions, maybe five or six growing up. They were all very mild. I hadn't actually lost consciousness with any of them. They had been from... strangely I didn't actually have any in football. They had been waterskiing or wakeboarding, snow skiing, surfing, boxing. And this one, I was wakeboarding. So it's behind a boat. So behind a speedboat kind of like waterskiing, but it's like the snowboarding or skateboarding equivalent.

Tasha Stanton: 8:42

You do all those crazy flippity flips?

Robbie Frawley: 8:44

Yeah, that's right. And so your feet are strapped in very, very tight. The tighter you can get them the better because you want to have a really responsive board. And so that turns out that's not ideal for, you know, other things. But yeah I really loved wakeboarding and on this particular day, I wasn't trying to do anything special. I was there with some friends and just cruising along, and I think I did something really basic like a bunny hop, and sort of switched my stance, so instead of left foot forward was right foot forward, and I was trying to do it over something and got a bit distracted. Instead of going all the way around, I only went halfway around and then landed, and so caught that front edge. And the effect of that was, was to kind of whiplash me into the water. And I mean, that's pretty common with wakeboarding as I said, particularly if you have really tight bindings.

Tasha Stanton: 9:43

I've definitely done that snowboarding, so completely understand about catching an edge.

Robbie Frawley: 9:47

Yeah. But for whatever reason, on this particular day, that didn't respond well. So I sort of came up and I was a bit thrown and a bit like.... Something about it sort of made me a little bit nervous so that I climbed back into the boat, instead of putting the board back on and keeping going like I normally would. I climbed into the boat and said, I'm done. And then we went home. And I was a little bit out of it, I was aware that I was a little bit out of it. And so I didn't actually drink even though I had friends over that night, I made sure I didn't drink alcohol, just because I had some awareness of background with concussions and so I sort of just wanted to do the right thing. And anyway, I went to bed. Next day, I was feeling pretty good, so I got up and my friends headed off and I went surfing. I was surfing tiny surf, surfing a mini mal and I did a late drop, dropped into the wave late. And I don't know how I did this, but I effectively caught an edge again. And so again, kind of whiplashed into the water. I think I came out of that and was sort of very slow. Yeah. And then basically sat up and had a very quiet day and had a very quiet couple of days. I think it was a long weekend. So I didn't do too much, just feeling a little bit ill and groggy. And I just thought I just need to chill. I went back to work on the Monday or the Tuesday after the long weekend, and then pushed through to the end of the week and then was just knackered. So I made it to the end of the week, I had headaches and was not feeling very good. But that's quite common with concussion, you obviously feel pretty rough, you know, in the days and the weeks after, and then you normally just sort of start to improve. So I was aware of that and I wasn't concerned about it. But I was just kind of pushing through, and then I'd get to the weekend I just slept, which wasn't standard behaviour for me. And then I'd get to Monday again, and it was like'Alright, I'm ready to go', and then push through the week kind of grinding, and then get to the weekend, and I was just cooked. I think I actually went back to my parents place and basically went to sleep, and was in bed and pretty much did nothing.

Tasha Stanton: 12:12

That must have been quite concerning for them I imagine or were like, oh, maybe he's just tired?

Robbie Frawley: 12:17

I'm not sure I don't have a great memory of it. They probably were a bit concerned. But I'm not super sure. Anyway, on the Monday I think they said 'you know, I think you may be better to just keep resting'. I was of course terribly stressed about (all of the work I needed to do) and said but hang on, I've got these things to do at work... like they have to happen. I can't not go back. And I remember talking to my boss and said 'don't worry about it, just take it easy'. Anyway, I took off the week and just rested. And again the next weekend I thought 'I'm good to go'. And anyway, after a few cycles of that, very boom-bust, I went in and saw my GP and he... I was fortunate, he had some experience previously with the trauma Rehab Centre in Geelong called Grace Mckellar. I think it was Grace McKellar community outreach or community rehab centre. And so he sort of said 'oh look, this is... I feel like I've seen something like this before, it might be worthwhile you going and seeing these guys'. So he gave me a referral. And they were fantastic. I guess that's what you would call or I would call kind of best current practice in terms of concussion rehab, where you've got, or I had a team of people (treating me). So the main person, kind of the director if you like, running the show was a trauma rehabilitation physician and then there was an occupational therapist and a physio therapist and an exercise physiologist and a neuro psychologist. And effectively what they're doing is they would typically see people who have experienced car crashes and things like that. And then they would be seeing them as a team and all putting in their little bit of specialty expertise to kind of help this person recover. And they would do that in both an inpatient setting for people in hospital, but also they had an outpatient service with people like me that could come in from outside and have your appointments and then go away. And so I came in and they basically sort of ran me through a bunch of tests and that involved I think a questionnaire and cognitive tests where they would sort of read out A-7-B-12... you know, a series of numbers or letters and then ask you to repeat them back or that type of thing or get you to do some puzzle, and time you and...

Tasha Stanton: 14:58

No stress though...

Robbie Frawley: 14:59

and then kind of look at you while you're trying to work out if that was a good time or not a good time. And then physical tests like a balance board thing that you had to stand in and close your eyes, and it would move and shudder and assess where your balance was, and whether your reactions effectively were within the normal range. So lots of different tests like that and then they sit down and speak with you and talk to you about what the results were and, and what they thought and what that meant going forwards. And so they said to me 'look, this is classic post concussion syndrome', which is not something I'd ever heard of. And they said 20% of concussions don't resolve within the standard period, the symptoms persist and we can tell you that you will return to normal, we just can't tell you when. And so, then they would highlight Okay, well, in these areas,

Tasha Stanton: 16:01

So what sort of strategies or things did they you're quite strong, or in these areas, there's quite a deficit there. And effectively, then each of the specialties would work (with you, and) give you some strategies as to how to cope in life if you like, because you're pretty limited. think at that point, were really quite important for you to focus on?

Robbie Frawley: 16:30

Everything was about pacing. So everything was about a management strategy. So it was, for me at that time, I was really, really fatigued. You know, I would sort of said, I would go to work I'd push through, and then I would literally just come home and collapse. And then I would get up and do it again. And so they would sort of describe that as you're doing that and you're having a collapse, you're going too hard. And so you need to stop before you get to the point of not being able to do anything and recharge your batteries earlier, if you like and they described that in a when your brain is recovering from a concussion, effectively, its energy requirement is much greater than normal setting. So everything you're doing, if normally, for the fern analogy, if it required one muesli bar to do X task, you know, in a concussed state or recovering from a concussed state, it might take two or three muesli bars that's sort of chewing through that energy, and it's fatiguing quick, more quicker than usual.

Tasha Stanton: 17:36

It's kind of interesting, because sometimes, like fatigue is not always attributed to being you know, a symptom of something like oftentimes, we think I've just done too much versus, like really having I guess that understanding that when you've undergone something like this, actually, there are different requirements, it means that this is completely makes sense why you're so tired all the time, or like, was that grasping that fit helpful? Or did you kind of already work out that yourself? By I guess your experience is a kind of boom and bust.

Robbie Frawley: 18:08

It was helpful, it was helpful to have I think it's helpful when someone can say, Yes, I know what's wrong with you. And that's normal. And we can assist with that. It, it sort of did make sense, it did help. Because I suppose I still have this mental image in my head, which was, I think talking about it is obviously taking me back. But I had this mental image. And I would describe to people in that, you know, saying kids video game, you'll often have the, if you're a character, you have an energy bar, and so the top right hand corner, and that will slowly sort of go down, you know, either during the game or if the character is attacked by something. And I will just find that energy, but I could, in some situations, I could nearly see that energy power just dropping like if I walked into a supermarket. Wow. Like it taught me how much stimulation is in a supermarket because I could walk in kind of fully charged. And I would just, I could just see the energy, but it's draining. And I'd think I need to get out of here in the next two minutes, or I'm gonna be on the ground. And I guess I realised since that it's because everything Asuma is designed to grab your attention. Everything's fighting. Everything's designed there to fight for your attention. And in an overstimulated state. That's way too much

Tasha Stanton: 19:44

Yeah. And that is interesting to think about. Yeah, like the different areas of our environment that like they would require higher energy sources or or more energy to go into them and still be able to come out because I know what you mean. I find supermarkets exhausting. They're so bright and It's loud. And it's echoey. And it's yeah, it's it's a lot on, actually. Yeah, absolutely. So with that, the programme that you that you went through how long were you, you know, doing that outpatient programme?

Robbie Frawley: 20:15

So I was living in Warrnambool, and the outpatient centre was in Geelong, so that's about two hours away, and a half to two hours. So, and I was still trying to work. So my parents had very wisely sort of pushed me to keep working, because at times on this boom, bust cycle, it was just too much, I was constrained to become concerned about what was going on. What on earth was going on with my head because my whole system was kind of shutting down. You know, everything would start to fail, if you like, you know, I'd be getting the headaches, which at the start had been acceptable, which had become more severe and more persistent, and nausea. And I began, it was becoming increasingly sort of nauseous and unbalanced if I was not feeling right. And cognitively, I didn't feel very clear. So I feel really foggy. And like, I couldn't think and I'd be concerned about that. And so then, you know, then you're assessing to see if I am if I am I thinking, Am I with it, like

Tasha Stanton: 21:25

It's a vicious circle.

Robbie Frawley: 21:26

Oh, it's a vicious circel. And so, um, what else I don't know. So I guess you've all these symptoms have become stronger and stronger. And so I was concerned about those and are singing, and when you would stop, and you would rest that would subside. And so as I explained, I would have what was initially like a weekend of rest, and then I would kind of all subside and I'd be feeling good. And I think I'm good to go. And then I'll jump back into work. And that would sort of slowly creep back on but I wouldn't really listen to them, I'll just persist until the end of the week. And then that would be at a state with our so in inflamed and revved if you like that I was really struggling to operate in the world. And so I think at the time, I was quite concerned, and I guess, previous knowledge around concussion was, you know, if you saw an old school GP, they'd say, line a dark room until symptoms subside. So there's a little part of you that's thinking, Maybe I should just belong in a dark room until these side and I, you know, give myself enough time to lie there. And this resolve that, I guess that's probably quite an old school view. And anyway, so there was some sort of concern about wanting to do that. And my parents at the time sort of pushed me or encouraged me strongly to keep going to work in whatever form and that was probably one of the first things that the, the team at Grace Michela suggested was actually cutting work back to halftime. So I would go in, and I think initially, it might have been halftime every second day. So I suppose because their medical team and you're getting a medical certificate, and they would write that in my workplace was incredibly supportive. I was really fortunate. Not everyone's like that. And you know, so yeah, that was just really lucky. So I could do that. So that was a big thing. They sort of cut it back to half time.

Tasha Stanton: 23:19

And did you notice a difference with that, like, once he started to reduce those hours at work? Did you? Did it start to feel like you're kind of being able to make headway on some of those like exhaustion, headache, nausea type symptoms?

Robbie Frawley: 23:31

It's funny, I guess I did. At the time, I always felt like I was kind of working at threshold. Yeah. Like I was probably just not very aware of, or very good at listening to what my body and my symptoms were telling me.

Tasha Stanton: 23:48

Probably because that is that's universal. I think for a lot of us, especially if you're in you know, a lot of different sports, you actually learn to ignore pain, soreness, discomfort, things like that, because you're pushing to do things. So I imagine like I'm almost picturing, like relearning, listening to the body. Because I think I don't know, I guess I probably put this into my own personal circumstances, but I know I'm, I can be bad at that. Yes. And then you sort of realise that you've gone too far. Yeah. And but by then it's too late. You've already passed that threshold before? And it's like, Oh, good. Yeah, that's really interesting that, yeah, that it was almost scarier. You're re relearning. We're going through that. That thresholding

Robbie Frawley: 24:31

hmm. And I think I was very slow. So just for context to this was that an initial injury or you know, bump? Wakeboarding for was seven and a half years ago? Yeah, I think and I'm 34 now, so. Yeah, it was in my late 20s. And yeah, I think I was a really slow learner, of graded anything. You know, I think I've always been very much, you're either 100% in, or I'm not doing, you're not in at all. And through just repetition, and getting knocked down. Like, No, you need to do this graded, very slowly seen, and I appreciate now, the the benefits and the advantages in doing something. And that could be anything, you know, in a graded way. Like, during COVID, I did a couch to 5k programme because I, you know, like the app. Yeah, and I was comfortable that point. And we can talk about that later, like that I had was good to go. And I was 100%. But I still hadn't run for seven years, I used to run a lot. And so that sort of really highlights that I in the past if someone said I'd do a catch stick 5k There's this app, you know, in eight weeks, eight weeks, like no, I can run 5k Today, I'll do it tomorrow. And so whereas I'm much more happy to do that now. And I think I just get that it works for our bodies, and our brains and everything, it just work on a year that is quite even if we don't want to do that, for whatever reason. It's very beneficial to our systems. Yeah. And so that was great. I mean, eight weeks. It's amazing. Like, you've clicked the fingers, and it's gone. And you're running five games if you're good. Next day after. Exactly.

Tasha Stanton: 26:30

So what what's sort of happened? I guess, you've gone into this the programme where you're kind of getting some personalised advice about pacing, reducing work, what's what have happened with your symptoms over time?

Robbie Frawley: 26:43

Well, I guess there's sort of the meta view or the broad view or the micro view. And so at a broad level, they trended up, you know, they gradually increased. And you would say, oh, that's, that's really good. But that isn't how I necessarily felt at the time. So on the kind of micro day to day, week view, I was still sort of boom busting, and are still it was, it was a battle and a grind. And it didn't often it didn't feel like I was making progress, or moving forward. And so it's really important, I think, sometimes and you can only do that over a broader timescale, they kind of stand back and go, hang on, have I made improvement here, am I going in the right direction, I guess the other thing is, you might be making improvement, but you might not be to your expectation of time. So when you've initially got an expectation that I'm going to be good to go in a week, or that, you know, you've got all these things and calendar, you've got weddings lined up and you've got trips lined up. It's good weather. So you want to be going surfing like the middle of summer, Tash. I mean one word. So I want to go waterskiing, and wakeboarding. First of all, tonight, exactly, and my, probably my brain and my expectations of what I wanted to be doing. Again, you can sit back now and go, Oh, yeah, it was all trending in the right direction. But at a timescale that I wouldn't have wanted to know about at that point. I didn't, you know, I think you'd start reading stuff. And they would talk about six weeks or this period or that period. And, you know, I was only interested in the shortest possible time. Whereas, yeah, so it was definitely fluctuated short term. You know, I was a slow learner, as I said, of that, of doing things graded. But as you stand back, it did trend up.

Tasha Stanton: 28:42

And I think that that actually is such a, that hits home to me a lot. That's such an important message, that idea that it doesn't feel like you're improving when you look into the minutiae, small scale, but stepping back, it actually is. And I think that is hard to feel like something's proving, if you're, if basically what you're trying to do most of times is pushing things just to threshold and not over because that push the thresholds pretty important, but then you kind of constantly feel almost like crap. Yes, a lot of the time. So it feels like I guess I, I see, we do see this when we work with people who have pain, that oftentimes we're trying to increase activity, and you're always pushing to that, that point where it's starting to feel uncomfortable, it's starting to increase in pain. So it doesn't feel like it's definitely getting better because you're feeling pain. Most days. It's never counsel. That's right. But I think what a that's such an important point that that that trajectory is still going. It just takes that step back. But I take your point about two expectations of time. I'm quite impatient. I hear you.

Robbie Frawley: 29:48

And so I suppose to describe what that looks like. Yeah, so the key strategies that I was using at that time that were, I guess, taught to me by that team. The first one was I that if you, we talk about that energy bar again. So the life bar if you like in the top right hand corner of your screen, if you see you're looking at through your eyes, if I'm running full, I would, I guess at the point I was seeing Grace Michela to beat. So the clinic, you know, to begin with, I think I would last an hour and a half to two hours. And every hour and a half to two hours, I would need to lie down in a dark room for 15 minutes. And doing that would allow my energy bar to fill back up. And then I'd be good to go again. And the symptoms wouldn't generally be there. And I'd be feeling pretty good. But by the time I got to that hour and a half, two hour period, I'd be starting to slur, I'd be becoming unstable, I'll be starting to fog would be coming into my, my sort of thinking space, starting to get a headache, it'd be starting to feel nauseous. And if I wasn't really aware of the time, I quickly became aware, something was up and about, ah, it's like an hour and a half, two hours, I need to lie down now. And so, over time, I reduced, I guess that time. So you know, 15 minutes to 14 minutes. And you know, I literally just had, you know, got a phone in my pocket and has a great, you know, on the clock thing, there's a great countdown timer, that I have used that. So you know, it's always said on whatever you've had it on. So like that would go from sort of 15 to 14 to 13 to 12, to, you know, slowly, and then the gap between them. So from, you know, every hour and a half, two hours to sort of get slowly great. And that might be over two weeks. So I go over, you know, I might be at 10 minutes, you know, and I got to the point where I didn't have to be lying horizontally in a dark room, but I could just sit and close my eyes. And that was a big thing. Because you can sit and close your eyes, anywhere. It's quite amazing. I've sat and close my eyes. And some, you know, you can if you're in Melbourne, I remember I was the first few times I went to Melbourne after like years later. And I'd have gone to somewhere to see people but I might be on a street and you sort of trying to I don't know, you don't really want to go into all the details. He wouldn't tell people all the stories, but you would excuse yourself for some reason. And shuffle that around the corner, be sitting in some alley and like sit on some milk crate beside all the rubbish or something and just close your eyes for at that point, it was six minutes, just put the timer on. And that was so regenerative, regenerative. I reckon that's definitely. Yeah. And so I think that's I mean, I actually still use that. So I got to a point where I don't think I needed it anymore. But I actually decided I realised that I said, Sorry, that's every four hours there about four to five hours, I'll still stop whatever I'm doing. If I need to remove myself from where I am, or if I'm doing it wherever I am, I'll put on the timer, three minutes, I'll just close my eyes. And I'll just either just close my eyes and kind of switch off. Or, if I'm distracted, I'll just start listening to noises around me. So if I do that, right now, I can hear the projector harm. To my left, I can hear some traffic or something behind me, I can hear this kind of low hum of the air conditioner above, I can hear my hand moving in the air to the right or must be something with the February. And I don't know for me that was really, really grounding. I knew that if I just stopped doing it, which I could have, I would sort of just never stop. And so I decided at that point, it's actually quite healthy habit just to sustain in life because you actually stop and you pull yourself out of whatever you doing. So I've sort of just kept that.

Tasha Stanton: 34:15

That's a really good so you're kind of explaining that those those taking those mini breaks and structured so that you know that you need to do that. But then also using those kind of grounding techniques to just centre yourself where you are. And do you find what those ones is it with those? You're noticing what's around you. Are you also noticing internal sensations or is it mainly?

Robbie Frawley: 34:37

I'm aware that in mindfulness, people have various techniques, and often that will be feeling sensations in your body or noticing thoughts or different things for me. Like I meditate now, a little bit so I've sort of found that really useful as well. So I might meditate might just put on the calm app. That's really good. For our 10 minute meditation, I'll try to do that once a day cuz I find that really a really good life thing. And really calming and centering and sort of, I just recommend it, it's really, but But in that I definitely do that body scan thing where you actually sort of starting, you know, breathe deeply for first and then start at the top of your head and go through your body, noting what am I feeling like any sensations stuff, and then I'll come back and like breathe into them. But when I, I guess the switching off initially, at the point of switching off, I was just completely exhausted. So originally, I was just closing my eyes and zonking. And then I think over time was like, after I'd come to from the zonk Yeah, the last like, minute, I might be at home, I come back to consciousness, then I might be listening.

Tasha Stanton: 35:51

I love that word, zonking. It's a very good description of it.

Robbie Frawley: 35:55

So sorry. Yeah, so that was one thing that over time, that was a really key strategy. The other thing was planning stuff out. And so that would say, Okay, you need to mow the lawns, rather than, say, owning all the lawns at once. Just plan to do half the lawns, and just stop. And again, the status like but yeah, everything was just breaking things into component parts, and allowing yourself then just sit on the couch for a bit. And do what? Don't do anything. Just just, yeah, just be

Tasha Stanton: 36:31

This is very difficult advice. Do you know who I am? So do you feel throughout this like so clearly, as you've mentioned, this, this was a process that took time and maybe more time than didn't often you'd hope,

Robbie Frawley: 36:43

Much more time than I was hoping or expecting.

Tasha Stanton: 36:46

With that, did you find that there were certain things that you know, were really quite crucial, like books, resources, things like that, that were crucial to your journey kind of along this?

Robbie Frawley: 36:55

Yeah, absolutely. So I think a really fundamental thing for me, was learning to have an appreciation of neuroplasticity. And that's a big word. But effectively, it just means the brain's capacity and capability to heal and to grow. And you're a researcher in this field, so you if I'm butchering, you know the Scripture, feeling correctly. But this is my layman's terms understanding of it. And I think that's really important, because I certainly grew up with this understanding that the brain is hardwired and very differently to every other organ in our body, it can't heal or regenerate or renew itself, the way that our if we cut ourselves out, heal itself. And so if that is a thought process is quite destructive if you have had an injury to your brain. And so a book that was particularly helpful to me, and I would really recommend to anyone listening to this, whether you've had some sort of you're, you're recovering from something, or whether you're a friend or family member of someone who's recovering from something, or whether you just happen to have stumbled upon this podcast, I really recommend looking for and reading or listening to a book called the brain that changes itself by a medical doctor in the US called Dr. Norman Doidge. So di D, G, because I had a friend or colleagues, partner, I remember seeing her one day, and she sort of said to me, Robbie, I was up to my boss's car the other day, and has this audiobook playing. And I think you should really listen to it. And so she told me about this. And prior to that, I would often read books. And at this point, if I read a book, I would get a headache. And I think that was actually because in that day, following the surfing the second impact when I'd been surfing, and when I was feeling very ordinary. And I was like just chilling. I thought again, oh, if I can't go surfing, I should do something make use of this time. And there was a book that I was reading. And I think maybe when I was reading that book at this time when I had all those symptoms, or when I brain really just needed a rest. I don't know maybe that just means there was something where it took a while for me to sort of be reading a book in that setting again, so again, like we said, I had to actually slowly re acclimatised myself I was reading at night before bed, I would instead of trying to read what I wanted to read, I would read half a page and then I would force myself to close the book and be like what, what happens next? I've closed the book, putt, putt and then you know over weeks increase and it's amazing. The brain and the body can adapt to and recover if you allow I have to do it in a graded way. But the idea of trying to read this book that's going to be helpful for you want to get that information in, but I couldn't read a book. And so audiobooks are fantastic. So I highly recommend thing. It's on Audible, you can get it from the library. Yeah, fantastic book. And the reason it was fantastic was because he shares stories of people who have had miraculous recoveries from all sorts of brain related. I don't even know if illnesses is the right description

Tasha Stanton: 40:30

Yeah traumas, like stroke, stroke was one of them wasn't it?

Robbie Frawley: 40:34

Yeah, there's just some amazing stories. And this was I don't know, when it was written, but it was stuff that was not accepted, sort of..

Tasha Stanton: 40:44

Kind of general knowledge of that in that field or that area.

Robbie Frawley: 40:47

And I just found it the most hopeful, sort of exciting, life reinforcing light at the end of the tunnel for me, and so I would just listen to it and just find myself so excited. And exhilarated by the thought, I mean, you know, I'd be listening to someone's story about recovering from a vestibular issue, and the incredible Doctor, this sort of thing in the US, and it is amazing, you know, just their curiosity, basically, all recoveries were because the treating doctors having to be incredibly curious and open minded. And these things that people didn't expect to happen would happen. And that book was probably just lit a match, you know, for me, and it gave me hope that you can recover, and that regardless of whatever's happening, for someone with a brain related issue, which are pretty like confronting issues, because because of what we're talking about earlier, where traditionally they've been regarded as it's fixed, and that's the way it is, which is a very kind of fixed mindset. And instead of just opening the curtains on that and saying, You are these examples of people who've recovered from things people didn't expect them to. So that was a fundamental, a fundamental moment for me. And I'd really recommend that book.

Tasha Stanton: 42:13

I think, yeah, that's, that's huge. That that knowledge that things can change. And and I think what I love about those as we all kind of go in a way I do anyway, for the underdog, like, you know, when you're watching something, and then it's like, a kind of like, when I think about things like that, because I've gone through, you know, various injuries and other things, not not, not what you're discussing here, but you feel like, sometimes I do in that situation, that I'm the underdog. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I can cheer for that. Like, if you feel like it's possible. That's amazing. And I think that that is really, that hope, is really, really important. And that hope is based on solid scientific knowledge. And that's, I think, what I as a, as a researcher and a scientist I get really excited about because it's not misplaced. It's not misguided. It's based on the knowledge that we know from rigorous study. And that's amazing. Where did you find yourself I suppose after that, and where how does that compare to where you are now?

Robbie Frawley: 43:14

Yeah, sure. So I suppose that, you know, if we look at that, stand back kind of view. So that probably went for you actually asked a question earlier. But you know, how often would I see the team, I think I only saw them three times, maybe physically. So I went in there for the initial testing, I might have gone back, maybe a month or two later. And just seeing maybe the physio, just for something particularly, and then maybe I went back once more another six months later, but I would often speak to the trauma rehab physician, if I was having, I was concerned about something or I was uncertain about what I should be doing in a certain situation, or if something was pushing too far, or not pushing enough or speak to them that were really generous, and, you know, I could email them or I could ring them and get some calibration of okay, what is what is the right amount? And just because you mentioned before about threshold and working near threshold, it was really difficult to work out where threshold was or is. And so that certainly took a while. And I think that's part of the boom bust initially is you're not if you're not aware of your body in you're not that aware. That's why you'd bombast because you'd think you'd find still, but you'd push way past it, and then you wouldn't know until you crash. And so part of that was talking to her and getting a bit of a calibrating your own understanding of what is appropriate and what's too much and what's challenging. Because you're always you are always working near threshold. And so you are always feeling pretty ordinary, but you need to keep pushing but not push too.

Tasha Stanton: 44:56

Did you find it that threshold, like change day by day cuz I would imagine it might not say actually static even for a similar activity, like, if you were super tired or didn't get a good sleep,

Robbie Frawley: 45:07

Oh, absolutely. In terms of making changes, I would probably make changes every it'd be based on feel the shortest time period probably be two weeks before change. But, you know, there probably would go months where they you wouldn't make changes. And other times, you'd be making them quite quickly, because you felt you're starting to feel like you had surplus energy, perhaps. But yes, stuff would vary, you know, as you scale in, yeah, day to day, throughout the day, like, it was quite amazing how even you could be feeling so bad in the morning. And you get, you know, once you get into the day, you could actually get through like, I probably had a whole lot of crutches through that period. And some of those were from the team and some you just picked up yourself. And so I will come back to your question. I've just realised this isn't really, I like it, I just realised this some extra information. So in that initial period, they'll probably smell the crutches. For one, one of those for me, often I would wake up, and I'd be almost paralysed by fear. And that was fear of how I was going to be that day, and whether I could cope with with it and whether I could get through the day. And that sounds. I mean, it even sounds trivial to me. But it certainly wasn't at the time. And I guess the stories that we tell ourselves, and if we allow ourselves that's effectively that fear is is a voice on in my head saying, when I wake up, right as you wake up, oh, you're not feeling good. Like, this isn't a good start to the day. Like, you're feeling very fatigued, and you're feeling you know, you got a bit of a headache already. And you've just had eight hours sleep. And you got a pretty big day today. I don't know if he can, you're gonna be alright, can you get through today? And you know, that would then just like, once that happens, it starts to like, build and run on itself. And if you're lying in bed, and you're like, Yeah, my era. Yeah, it's amazing how we can have these conversations. But But like, really, that's just one character in your head. And then you're almost like receiving it. Ah, yeah, it's true, I am fatigued. And then you're thinking, wow, I was gonna get up and go for a walk. But maybe I really need another hour of sleep. And like, maybe it's critical that I get another hour sleep just because I might not actually get through the day and my body, my brain might need another hour of sleep because he's so overly hyped about your condition and your brain. And that's just a trap. And so that's something I'd really say to people is probably one of the most useful crutches that I don't even know how with I don't think anyone told me I think it kind of came from a quote, that wasn't completely relevant. But Tom Murphy, who was a really famous Richmond coach had this and he was really vigorous, energetic, positive, you know, supporter of people on a real, someone I kind of idolise and he had this quote, that was, when the sun comes up, you'd better be running. And because he would get up at like, you know, five, dock and run 5k, and then go for a swim and then do 500 Push ups or 500, sit ups and push ups. And so that was just him. And even though I couldn't run, obviously, at that point, the grace McKellar had had the head said, I want you to walk for 10 minutes. If you can walk in nature, that's the best, you know, calm, quiet setting where there's trees, maybe away from traffic, but walking is really good. And just notice, like, notice what you can see. Notice the trees and the leaves and the clouds and what you can hear, just pay attention to that and just start off with 10 minutes, again, 10 minutes. Normally, I would serve for three hours, like what he talking about, anyway, 10 minutes, okay. And we can grow that up over time, you know, in a couple of weeks from 15 minutes, and then we might do 10 minutes twice a day. But as we've talked about, it grows, and it's quite helpful to have guidance and know what is appropriate and something to work, you know this then you're not questioning whether you're doing too much or not enough. So that walking that getting up in the morning and walking. That was my one sort of activity I was allowed to do early on. And so it became really important to me and I was really fortunate I lived in I was living in horrible I lived, you know, and it's beautiful outdoor setting. So within about a block of my house, there was a really nice patch of sort of native vegetation. And I could walk to that, and I could just kind of close my eyes, like just pretty much just walk there, and then be walking, taking it all in. And I do that 10 minute return trip. And that was sort of the first thing I would do. And so I something to do with Tom pay fees, quote, early on, when I I must have fought with myself a few times, and maybe stayed in bed, and it wasn't helpful. And so somewhere along the way, this voice, these other voice, helpful voice, in my head kind of yelled at me, like, Get up, get up, get out the door, and just walk. Like you can think later. You don't think now, you can think later. And so that was really helpful, because it just removed didn't matter how I woke up. I just wouldn't allow myself to start that process of querying how you felt, and whether you know, you would get through the day, I just turned off thinking and it was just get up, put on your shoes, walk out the door, almost like a zombie, and just walk. And then you were just fine. Like it's your walk, you're out, you know, halfway through the walk is birds flying over you and the sun starting to come up and it's beautiful. And, and you're noticing looking at the, you know, paying attention, as I've said, like looking at the leaves and looking at the clouds. And by the time you'd get back to the house 98% of the time, you'd feel good enough to then go Yeah, like, Okay, now I'm gonna have a shower. Now I'm gonna have breakfast. And it was just, it got you over that hump. And it's amazing how sometimes, then by the end of the day, you can be feeling some of the best you've ever felt. And so things can change really quickly. And I mean, I would have been the first to tell you, I'm feeling so bad at this point, I, it's not going to be better later. But it's amazing how quickly it can shift. And so that that was really helpful. The other thing is, if things are really, really difficult, not only early on, but later on, if you'd have things happen, where you get a knock or whatever. And things become really difficult, I find that it's often when you're forecasting out, and you're thinking, Oh, how am I going to cope with X scenario? When I've got something on this weekend? What am I going to do to deal with that, you know, I've got this commitment, how am I gonna deal with that I can't, I might be not able to cope. And so almost have this thing of like bringing your hand like right into your face and going okay, like, let's just do with this. What's the next thing you have to do? Okay, the next thing you have to do is get up and go for a walk and in that setting might be okay. Next thing I have to do, if I can get to work today is when that's all you have to do. Don't worry about anything beyond that. And then it's like you get to work. Ah, last one, okay. Just get to morning tea. And there's something that's incredibly enabling about that. And I think in our own lives, we can, we can almost fall into that trap of forecasting so far out that things can become burdensome. And so it's just a really helpful tool. It's just bring it right back to the shortest possible, just deal with that. That's all you have to deal with.

Tasha Stanton: 53:26

And I think that's a lot of what you're saying, would really hit home actually, for a lot of different people, whether or not they've experienced any type of, you know, head injury or anything, like lots of times people will wake up, you know, feeling anxious in the morning, and that can paralyse people. And it's sort of like those thoughts. They're thinking you need to do things, but you're not physically moving or actually doing anything. So all it kind of does is generate a copy of itself, that perpetuates. And that is can be so stressful. Like, I know, I love that idea of, you know, just bring it here, just get it to that, like, the number of times I remember, you know, not wanting to you know, get up and do stuff in the morning, like a run or something. So just like it's cold, it's crappy. Don't feel like I'm gonna get tired. But like, I remember I did different athletics in university and, and high school. And they always said, when one coach has said, You know what, just get just get up, do five minutes of it. If if you hate it, and you still feel like garbage, quit. Yeah, but most of the time, once you do five minutes, or maybe it'd be two minutes, depending on your situation. You're fine. And you're actually you're pleased that you've done this. And I find I apply that actually even to my daily life stuff. When I have a task. That's kind of hard. I'm like, Okay, I'll just do it for five minutes. That's good. But by the time you've been five minutes, you're stuck into it enough that you shut up all the other voices that you can't do it.

Robbie Frawley: 54:50

So you started you're good. You've got over that first hurdle. That's

Tasha Stanton: 54:53

so I hear Yeah, I think this is very good advice. Now,

Robbie Frawley: 54:56

I've gone way off tangent. But actually There was one other thing before we go back on tangent was there was a piece of advice that the trauma physician told me at one point when I was struggling, and she said, be aware of where you are, and keep going. And that he didn't nerve with me like a positive nerve in that, when you were trying to struggling to find that threshold. And you often you felt like things were a little bit too much. So it was a fine balance between you know, we talked before about you overdoing it, probably the longer it went on. It was more almost just, it became more of a trudging grind, because you were never feeling good. And you weren't feeling as though you were getting better. And so he was just like, you were smart on his slow march for that was awful. And felt really isolated and felt really dark. And, and so if you were trying to make I remember this, for trying to make this changes in Okay, I need to I've been sitting on six minutes for too long, like I need to get it down to five minutes. But I don't know if I can do it. Like it's I'm already running on fumes here. And she would say be aware of where you are. Keep going. I just found that really calming, arming. It's acknowledging that yes, what where you are is tough, and it's not easy. And so acknowledging that and being aware of it. Yep. And keep going. And really quite eloquently like that a lot. Okay, you're back?

Tasha Stanton: 56:40

Yeah, I'm trying to remember, I think it was something along the lines of so you've been you've described, I guess this this slow, gradual improvement over time. What sort of what experiences did you have after that? And sort of between that bit, and then your continued recovery? Yeah, sure.

Robbie Frawley: 57:00

So that went for some years, I suppose that taught me these, these key skills of staying started to become a bit more aware of your body and your energy levels and what your body and your brain needs to kind of adapt. And they've given me that confidence that I would return to full health at some point, and strategies to sustain me until I got there if you like. So I would only then just check in occasionally with them. I guess I was just that used, that was a path that I just took forward really until the last year. But along the way, you would still always or I found I was still always searching probably for a silver bullet. And that takes you on all sorts of interesting and Divergent Paths. And some of those are probably more helpful than others. I'm not sure if any of them, you know, in and of themselves are a silver bullet. But probably all of them are contributed in some way, hopefully, positively. Think you've obviously got to look after yourself and be aware and try not to do anything that's risky or could detrimentally impact you. But it's hard to be really clear. I think it's a bit of a cumulative impact of all the different things you try to do to help yourself and probably just even the fact that you are actively trying to help yourself. I think I've probably learned more recently about through you and that you know, your team and the work you do, how important it is to actively participate in your recovery. But yeah, I tried a wide assortment of things along the journey to varying levels of success. Including physiotherapy, osteopathy, reflexology, that's where they mess at your feet, very relaxing kinesiology rikey. I tried to eat food and have supplements which I'd read were beneficial for the brain. So fatty fish like salmon, and fish or supplements for the omega three fatty acids, lots of fresh vegetables and dark leafy greens. You know, I try to have turmeric and or curcumin, which is a natural anti inflammatory. I tried glutathione. I did a lot of different vestibular exercises, you know along the journey, which is where you move your head from side to side or up and down was trying to maintain focus on a point on the wall. They were prescribed by the rehab centre. I tried floating once which is basically like a warm spa which is designed in such a way as to remove all sensory stimulation into your body. I was constantly searching for and trying things which appeared to be low risk, but which might have some potential gain.

Tasha Stanton: 59:50

I have very little problem when things don't have danger. Yes, when they don't have risks involved to them, or involved with them and they're not you know Being charged exorbitant prices or things like that, then I think a lot of times, they're explorative options for people because we're all unique.

Robbie Frawley: 1:00:06

Absolutely. There were some other things I remember coming across an app called Super betta, which was developed by a game developer in who had, I think, suffered a concussion. And so she'd actually created it. after or during her recovery, she'd found video games really helpful. And so it was, it's using all of the techniques that she uses in her game development of positive reinforcement, and I guess setting challenges and, and that sort of thing, to try and reinforce things that are going to be beneficial for you and are going to be helpful for you. So it was kind of cool. I used it for a little bit. Meditation, you know, I've toyed with for many years, because people always sort of talk about how great it is. It's something that I've persisted with, and it is difficult, but I find really helpful. And I think, you know, there are many free apps out there. I think persisting until you find one, the voice aligns with you like, some of them are just annoying, you know, for me, whereas others are really, really resonate. I'm like, Oh, yes, I can, I can listen to you.

Tasha Stanton: 1:01:16

I like that idea of exploring, because I do think often we get suggestions of things, and maybe we try one. And we're like, oh, no, that's I hate it. But But that idea that yeah, there there might be some out there that resonate, more or less with you. And it's kind of finding that one that speaks to you.

Robbie Frawley: 1:01:31

Absolutely. Yeah. So for me that that's actually that's something I find really, really helpful in normal life. Now. You know, if I've got something or I just need to sort of quiet down or be a bit more focused meditating is really helpful. I found quotes really, really helpful.

Tasha Stanton: 1:01:49

How did you how did you use quotes, like you mentioned a little bit the one quote from the footy coach that kind of helps you to develop this strategy or crutches, you called it to get out of bed? Yeah. Did you? Did you sort of use them when you were in those really rough times? Yeah, yeah,

Robbie Frawley: 1:02:04

I wish I'd written them all down on the way. Because I would hear something or see something written or someone would say something, and it would just hit a chord with me. And I would like, fix onto it. And that would become my Yeah. My motivating kind of credo try voice, yeah, to get me through tough periods, basically, until it wore out. And it's funny how they would, they would wear that anyway. So I'd like use it until it no longer had its magical effect. And then I'd drop off, and I'd find something else. This was a good one, that someone that I am very impressed and inspired by said, he said, no one and nothing is ever broken, and can't be fixed. And again, I think it's just that idea of kind of hope. And that's really powerful. Franklin Roosevelt, he had one that I've always loved. And that is the only thing to fear is fear itself. Because I find that often, in this situation, it was kind of a fear around am i doing too much is this gonna hurt me is this you know, probably all quite just personal at the time, if something resonates with you, and it's helpful, use it, you know, until it's no longer helpful and move on. What else? Family and friends Oh, particularly family, I sort of probably wound vaccine friends for a couple of years, because they local friends, I would say but I wouldn't, I just didn't have the time or the energy surplus to kind of go out of my way to see people. So if people even then you had to be careful, because it could really drain you. But family were really important. And I actually kind of was lucky I lived about an hour from them. So I could go and see them on the weekend. And it actually meant that I had much more time with them quiet time and recuperative time with them. That was really special, but I wouldn't have had. And interests are really important. Like at that time, I felt incredibly grateful to them for just their support and their understanding. And they're listening to me if I needed to just vent and that kind of ability to if you are really struggling pick up the phone and talk to them. And I don't know, like I suppose you were just having to put on a front for like 99% of your life, like pretending that everything was alright, go to work, just pretend. And then it was just so training. And so it was super nice to have people that were just, you know, they're in your corner and you know, you're not having to pretend to sort of be impressive or something to them. And you could be weak, you know in front of them. And although that turns her off, and then you'd wish you weren't doing that and loading them up. I think for them. It's you know, Dad always had a great quote, problem shared is a problem halved. And so they their support was really important. And so there was this one thing I wanted to kind of do to show my appreciation that was cooking for. And so I got really into Jamie Oliver. And I could, you know, hear this great thing about him was it was almost like audiobooks, he had them, yet he shows, so I could never watch his race recipes, because it was I almost said, like recipe book, dyslexia recipe, I've always just yeah, you have to read it like 700 times. Whereas you gotta watch one of these shows. You watch it once, and you just know it. And so I'd have to watch it a couple of times, but then I'd like, over the week, you know, I'd break it up, you know, in the way that taught me, I might watch an episode on Monday after work. And then on the Tuesday, I might write the list. On the Wednesday after work, I might decide, you know, do half the shopping, and then, you know, anyway, so then by the time we got to the weekend, I went home, and I would like cook them this meal. And I don't know, in a time period, when I wasn't, I didn't feel like I was really doing anything, I was literally just like going to work to try to sustain that. So that I didn't drop off employment. And I didn't really feel like I was doing anything outside that it was quite important, I think to have an interest that you could actually succeed in and you were doing something for others. And that was really nice. Again, I'll, this is circling back. But I think I mentioned our parents that sort of really recommended I try to persist with work. And at the time, I felt that was really problematic. And I wasn't sure if it was the right call. Because I felt like I needed to just focus on my recovery and get better. I think, you know, as is normally the case with parents that was put on. And if I'd stopped, it would have been that much harder to restart. And probably the fear around that and coping would have been too great. Whereas I always kind of just had my toe wedged in the door. And now were so supportive. And then it meant that I could grade back up. And it's been consistent then. And a really important, you know, I suppose reinforcement of you through life. So those are all pretty, like, sort of,

Tasha Stanton: 1:07:08

that's amazing. Because I feel like as you're talking, I'm, I'm making this picture in my head of you and all the things that are surrounding you. And I'm seeing you as a person and I'm seeing nature and I'm seeing walks in nature, I'm seeing you know, family that you really trust and care about that you can be truly vulnerable with which is incredibly brave and hard. I see, you know, valued life activities that are cooking, that are all these different things I see work that is hard, but that is still contributing, and it's keeping you you know, it'd be nervous and fearful to not also be in it. And then you know, I that's just such an amazing cloud around you have probably what we would call sims or safety in these, these things that are, they're pushing you towards saying, I don't need to be protected quite so much. And that is such a cool thing to see, like I want to make this picture. Because that is incredible. And I think that, that the ability of all those different things to add up is also really cool. Because it's like you said even before, it's probably just wasn't one thing. But you add into that picture, you actively seeking out different things. And also putting in these strategies in place to keep yourself grounded in yourself motivated with quotes with different things like all of these things are just a huge, big like, hug. It's beautiful.

Robbie Frawley: 1:08:42

Are you able to explain? Like I i understand that when you see that? Because I've heard that and I think it summer explains an approach to getting better, that would be really, really relevant for people.

Tasha Stanton: 1:08:57

Yeah, sure. So we we talk about this idea of we all have our own unique protect ometer this unique system or body systems, brain systems that that helps us protect ourselves. And how that's determined is we kind of take a balance of the safety and the danger that's within our lives. And so various different things, they can be a safety or they can be a danger. So a person that you hang out with, I enjoy spending time with you. So I would you'd be a safety, a safety and meet. If I was with someone dodgy and I'm in a room I that parse person might be a danger. So a person could be both things. But the idea is that it's taking a look really quite deeply into your own life of the different contributing factors that may be adding to your need to protect your body. So they be dangerous or they might be adding to the fact that you don't need to protect your body safeties, and I guess the where I was looking at what You were describing is, is all these different ways that you're adding in Sims safety and mes and trying to tip the balance so that you have more of those than danger and mes such as anxiety, fear, you know, you know being being worried about what the future is going to hold all of those things that can they can push the balance towards needing to protect, but you're actively adding things into the safety column to push the balance the other way. And that's, I mean, that's beautiful in terms of what we would recommend, and we'd hope for people to be able to do,

Robbie Frawley: 1:10:36

you know, very eloquent. Can I add some context? Yeah, Boris. So you work predominantly in pain science. That's right. And so it's probably a great, really good segue. I guess a lot of the things I was just mentioning, were kind of like, I guess, additional small things that have been beneficial to various degrees. But if I'm really sort of looking at the standout things that were helpful, I guess, from that point of, after Grace McKellar, one of them was meeting you and the team from UTSA. And so that was to your academic researcher from the University of South Australia. And what are the groups or affiliations need to be mentioned there?

Tasha Stanton: 1:11:20

Not too much. Mainly, you need to say now Okay, yeah.

Robbie Frawley: 1:11:24

And so, I guess my housemate I live with two housemates. At this time. This was probably two or three years posts, post accidents on a very functional network, I think full time. But there's a whole lot of things that's probably about 80%. If I was to rate myself, I'm exercising I think swimming before work some days, maybe even riding a bit. I think I'd reintegrated some social activities as my sort of surplus energy increase, because that's been huge in my life, like I'm people are everything to me. And so I got back down to Melbourne, which was absolutely terrifying. The first I remember, I was on the bus down there. And I was just like, What am I doing? What am I gonna do if I just shut down when I get there? Anyway, I didn't like I had some like little quiet times in the alley where well, I, you know, why disappeared from my friends in the pub. And it wasn't drinking, obviously. But, you know, I saw some people. And then I returned to one and yes, it was draining. But it was also such a sense of exhilaration and triumph for such a big step, you know, gained forward of like, travelling to Melbourne and see seeing people again. And so you know, things were slowly grinding up and you know, improving. But there was some fundamental things that are still struggling with and they were tolerance to impact. So I couldn't have been trying to re acclimatised myself to jogging that hole through basically through that period. And I really struggled with that. So I'd graded up from sort of jogging in the pool, and two sets of 10, two sort of getting shallower and then onto grass. And I'd make some headway, but I'd always not relapse, but like to basically descend into sort of symptom onset and having to like pair right back and go into recovery mode for a couple of weeks now, I'd get a bit burnt by it. And I'd probably just be like, Ah, I don't really need to jog like, that's where I'd prefer just to be able to survive. And so there are a whole lot of things I still wasn't doing and I had this interest in neuroplasticity and my housemate one of my housemates at the time was a physio. And she had studied at the University of South Australia. And she'd studied one semester under Lorimer Moseley. And she was aware because she was a physio at the hospital that there was a group coming through town on this particular day. And now we're doing talks about pain sites. And then it was related to neuroplasticity. And so she said, I, Robbie, you be interested in this, you should head along. So I was like, Oh, no plasticity, I'm interested. And so I normally probably wouldn't be doing things after work. But I, there was a public session, I think at five o'clock at 530 in Lighthouse Theatre in wonderful. And David Butler was leading that. And then I went to that and it was all pain. Sorry. So this group, the group was called the pain revolution. And it was led by Lorimer Moseley, and David Butler and yourself and anyone else that needs to be added?

Tasha Stanton: 1:14:29

Always Tracy

Robbie Frawley: 1:14:32

I didn't meet Tracy I suppose until years later. Yeah. And, and my understanding of it and again, jumping if if you need to, was that this group? Pain scientists. And my understanding is that as a group, you are at the forefront of pain science globally. And basically like rock stars in the pain science. Well, that's how I describe your rock stars in the pain science.

Tasha Stanton: 1:14:59

They get some new clothes.

Robbie Frawley: 1:15:02

And you're all phenomenal humans as well. And anyway, so my understanding is that, I guess the group realised that there's probably about a 20 year gap between where the sciences and where general knowledge in the community and even to a large degree in how health practitioners treating pain sufferers, so people who are suffering from chronic or persistent pain. And so this tour, if you like, the group was riding from Melbourne to Adelaide over a week. And every day, you were stopping in a different regional centre, and giving public presentations about pain science, basically, to lift the education of pain science within the community, but also to health professionals along the way, which is really clever. And so I happen to become aware of this stuff in one bubble. And I saw David Butler present to all of these chronic pain patients. And that was amazing. And, you know, really vibrant presentations. And then there was mentioned that there was a public out like a health professional session after and I was just like, I'm going to sell and I'm pretty, very honest, sort of, you know, straight down the line, so the person and so, but I was like I'm going to the session. I was like, I have to make up. You know that I'm studying physio or something to do this. I I'm just going to have to prepare it beforehand. Yes, I'm a physio

Tasha Stanton: 1:16:29

straight face. I'm ready.

Robbie Frawley: 1:16:33

So I went to the health professional session after which was out at Deakin University in Larmer. presented there, even though everything being mentioned was talking about chronic pain, everything resonated for me. And it was like listening to the Norman Doidge book and his examples of I was just sitting bolt upright. Normally, I would probably be in bed at this time, because it's like 10 o'clock at night. I mean, I don't do drugs, but I presume it was like being on cocaine, like I was just so high, I was just high on life. From this information, there's hope. And what you got that you're sharing these these learnings and these stories, and this science, which was amazing. And yeah, it was really, really impactful. To me and I have described this previously it has, I think that night, it was almost like a, I got given this book, you know, I was holding this kind of pretend book in my, in my hands that I knew could help me because I could see how it was helping people with chronic pain. And I could see that it was relevant to my situation. And so I thought, Okay, I just need to, I've got this book that's going to fix me, or help me. And it's been it's written in a different language, because it's about pain, and I'm trying to recover from post concussion. So it's like, I need to translate it into post concussion. So I was psyched. For the next few years I was carrying this book ran, just thinking to myself, ah, yeah, like, I've got this book with the answers. And I'm gonna learn to read it one day, but I've got it, like, I'm aware of it. Which is a big thing still, because like, sometimes if you're not aware of the book, or you don't have the book, it's a big difference. So I was that was very sustaining. And, you know, subs subsequently realised that I can read it, it's written in English. And the way I see it now, everything that from my experience that is talked about in the chronic pain science, and you know, in David and Lauren, his book explain pain, which is another book I'd recommend, it's written in the context of pain, and persistent pain. And I guess, the science behind that, and how, you know, protect Amadeu works and the systems in our body work to protect us. And that's effectively what chronic pain is an overprotective pain system. But I've subsequently learned that it's chronic state, like after probably, I don't know, much more than six weeks. I'm not

Tasha Stanton: 1:19:06

sure exactly when but we go three months, but you're very good. Probably after three

Robbie Frawley: 1:19:11

months, you know, really, my, certainly over the last few years, my symptoms and symptom onset and stuff has really probably been very similar. And it's, I see it as my system being over protective. So once I've learned to understand that and understand how that happens, and why I can turn that down. And all of a sudden, I'm not getting symptom onset. And I'm just it's like, that's been the fight. That's been really fundamental thing, that knowledge and understanding that that's completely applicable to me and my experience now. And I think it's applicable to a variety of, you know, neurological issues beyond pain.

Tasha Stanton: 1:19:53

I agree with you because I think it to me listening to your story, I hear a protective feature of Fatigue, a protective feature of, you know, fog, and cognitive impairment, it

Robbie Frawley: 1:20:08

is,

Tasha Stanton: 1:20:09

seems it was not unreasonable, I don't think to think about the way that our systems react as, when it's too much. We, in order to stop us as humans, when it's too much there has to be a sensation or a symptom, because otherwise we don't listen. And we see this even you know, when people have an acute ankle sprain, and everything starts to hurt, we'll, that's so adaptive, because as humans, we will push through things. And unless it hurts a lot, we won't stop. And so it's really interesting, I think, to start to think about the extent to which this exists in other neurological type conditions as the one that you're speaking of, or, you know, things like stroke as well, we get lots of fatigue post stroke, that how different is this, we might just be starting from a slightly different state of a nervous system. But there's still neuroplasticity, there's still changeability, and there's still the need to protect. So I don't know, I like it. I think I, I think that there's a lot of scope for that to really help.

Robbie Frawley: 1:21:15

I just feel I'd realised halfway through, I still need to circle back. The reason I told that story, and I didn't need to tell the whole story then, but was to explain that this is what you described. And that's that sim cloud safety and me cloud is coming from a pain science. Education, yes, description. And the reason it's DMC might sound funny, but it's, it's effectively an acronym that's used, because it's easy for patients to remember. Because we all know what a DME is the MCM. And so dim in this case is di m, hyphen sim. So danger in me safety in me, and it's just a clever acronym to help people remember that, okay, let's become aware of the things that are effectively emphasising danger in our systems or are threatening to us, and try to lessen our exposure to those where we can, or switch them off altogether. And let's become aware of the things that are representing safety in me signals. And that could be catching up with family or friends, it could be doing an activity that you enjoy, it could be taking an active role in your recovery. And then by reducing your exposure to danger, many things that could be I don't know what some good examples of those

Tasha Stanton: 1:22:32

some of it can be changing the noises you make when you move. So some people like when they're in pain they do, like big, when they get out of a chair, it's sometimes could even just be stopping making those noises can help. Yep, it could be, you know, deciding actually, for some people, if I'm going to go on a walk, I don't really enjoy walking with that person. Yeah, I'm not probably going to go for a walk with them because I get stressed or they make me feel bad and not. And that can be enough. And so from the the basic science, I guess of that is that the studies that we do, where we manipulate these different things in labs, we show that it changes the threshold. So the things the your threshold that you were kind of talking about for pain, it changes the threshold at which it will come on which pain on sets. That's right. And it also will change. If we give someone something that hurts, we'll keep that identical. And those changing those different things around people will change how much that exact same stimulus hurts. Wow. So so that's how we that's the science, I guess, behind why we we think those things matter. And we think that we should care about them is that we see from a very controlled environment that they've changed that experience. And that's the idea. So you have it exactly right is that the more that you can enhance and bring in those safety and me's those Sims around you, as well as reducing where you can danger in knees, then you start to push the balance towards safety and not the need to protect and your threshold basically goes up, it takes more to elicit pain.

Robbie Frawley: 1:23:59

Okay, so I'm going to set can I say that course simpler term just from understanding. If that's saying the person a you've got person A and person B that you know, the carbon copies of each other in this case, but we're just going to give them different exposure, one person, so the same injury, yep, same treatment. But one person is doing a whole variety of things that give them safety messages, and that might be catching up with family and doing things they enjoy. And the other person is maybe catching up with someone who wrote stress for them or

Tasha Stanton: 1:24:33

Yeah, or seeing the home and not even talking to anyone isolating themselves

Robbie Frawley: 1:24:38

that their pain experience is going to be different. Yes. And the person like in a chronic pain situation, the person who's got a good ratio of Sims and a low ratio of teams is going to experience lower pain.

Tasha Stanton: 1:24:50

Yes, well, yeah. And we try to do those experiments by making having someone be their own control. So we randomise them to different and but every When always does all the conditions. So then you actually know that that system is the same. Yeah. Because otherwise, that's a hard comparison. But yeah, no, that's exactly right.

Robbie Frawley: 1:25:09

Yeah. And so then I suppose what we're saying in my situation is that instead of pain onset, it's symptom onset. So for my symptoms are cognitive fog and fatigue and headache and nausea instability, like vertigo, on stableness, that they will be affected by those things. That's exactly right. Beautiful.

Tasha Stanton: 1:25:32

I guess one of the things that I think was that we sort of talked about a little bit before that, I think would be really interesting to chat about is, you mentioned that you had this big multidisciplinary team that you saw originally, and that there may have been one person on this team that you felt that you might not have got as much out of it as you could. Can you tell me a little bit about? Yeah, absolutely. That experience, oh,

Robbie Frawley: 1:25:57

give you a little bit more leading to so I only saw that team in Geelong, you know, say the three times. And then basically, I'd been working my job in Wantable, for six years. This point on, this was three years ago. And I loved it, and I loved one ball. But I needed to sort of do something else professionally, and also kind of hit a plateau in my recovery. And I couldn't make any headway with this. Adapting to impact. And so there were still a variety of activities, like surfing and jogging, and really, you know, even if I didn't want to go, you know, I had a lot of mates getting married. And I didn't want to go to a box party. Because there'd be a lot of horseplay. If mates, we'd like to have a cup on and jostle, I'd be really concerned about the impact of that on my head. And so, even though I was highly functional, I suppose then you adapt to that. But I want more, which is good and bad. But I still I suppose yearning for more recovery. And so I sought, you know, sort out what, what else could help. And I spoke to my team in Geelong, and they said, Well, look, there's this concussion clinic in Melbourne at the net worth, and they have got a dedicated concussion clinic. And I've actually run a running programme. So that might be worth exploring. And I saw up perfect like, I'm wanting to get back to running their a concussion clinic. And, you know, I had heard in one regard, or know that they were the best regarded concussion clinic in Victoria. So as a river, so went down, very similar approach. In that case, it was I think, in your head person was a professor of neurology or neuro rehab or something, not a trauma rehab, so slightly different, but probably their understanding of the brain and brain science was maybe a bit better, but very similar approach at a team did all those initial tests again. And then I basically worked with an exercise physiologist who was really very specific graded a climatization, to impact programme. So that was on a treadmill, and then grading it up over weeks. And I did improve, I think I got up to 12 minutes over 18 months or something. But still, I was, it was I was always at threshold. Yeah, I'd probably been sub threshold for a period because I got to a good functional level. And then I was working just below it. But I was working a really intense job where I was working long hours was stressful. I was living in Melbourne. So I probably had less, probably some of my seams, in hindsight, had been taken away, and probably had some more depth. And then I was working at threshold all the time. And I was constantly sort of fatigued constantly on the edge of a headache. And also my emotional responses I found were more elevated. So if I had done a running session yesterday, I would go in there. So once every fortnight and on the in between periods, I might do a run every three days or as they suggested, and I would just find that would just always be on the edge of tipping over. And when I was tipping over, you know if I was at work, and you're working 12 hour days, and I would just find it because I was getting much better at awareness, self awareness at this point. So I would just find that I was reacting internally to situations strange like differently than I normally would a bit more reactive. Yeah. So meditation at that point became really helpful to kind of try to balance that bring me down, but it was really difficult. And I was also I'd taken on more and more so I was president of an industry association at that point. Having been on the committee for a few years and running all these events like I was doing a lot so I'd taken us playing a whole lot more sport but it just not an impact wise. So you know I was doing really well. But I was still aware of things I was wasn't doing. And this was my try to get there. And it was, had me against the wall. And I sort of got to a point where I was like, I couldn't sustain it, something had to give. And then something happened, my partner at the time rolled over in their sleep, and elbowed me in the head and kind of woke up. And they're like, whoa, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Like, you know, they were just asleep. Yeah. And I probably would just wouldn't get sleepy. But instead, I kind of woke up to them. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And so I was like, whoa, what? What happened? Now? I should get scared. Yeah. And so effectively, then I was thinking, oh, gosh, like, I've just got, he didn't hit? Am I okay, and you stay straightaway start sort of assessing? Do I have symptoms? And I guess the context for that is I had noticed, over the past few years that you know, you would inevitably get knocks, so you would get out of the car, you might knock absent mindedly knock your head as you get out of the car. And because I was so I'd had so many recurrent issues of getting minor knocks and then getting symptom exacerbation, because it's probably working your threshold. I was very sensitive to that. My awareness of that was probably over sensitised. And if I ever did bump my head, or someone bumped me roughly, I would be sort of then looking for. Am I with it? Do I have a headache? Am I

Tasha Stanton: 1:31:31

tired? Yeah. Is that cognitive impairment coming in?

Robbie Frawley: 1:31:34

Exactly. And so as soon as you start doing that, like, you're gonna find something. And so I started doing that in the middle of the night. Anyway, I went to bed, woke up the next day, train wreck. And it was rough. And so probably, I feel like I was clawing my way back for the next two months trying to survive. And that was were coming back the hand right in front of your face. Let's just get get up, get to work. Yeah, like that became really important, had the last couple of events of my presidency, including Ronnie to do this big speech. And I had last two weeks of this job. And then like all these, so it was just I just had to, like, get across so I could slump across the line. Thankfully, I could slump across the line. But anyway, did that clawed my way back over a few months, got back to as kind of good to go again. And then happened again. And and same things that happen. And but something in my mind kind of triggered. And I remembered this conversation that I'd had with. So I mentioned I part of the team was a neuro psychologist. So I something triggered this conversation I had with this neuro psychologist when I joined when I went to the with, you know, for the reassessment. Yeah, I'd kept it pretty short. Because I don't really know what psychologist does, or neuropsychologist but it sounds pretty serious. And it just makes me think of the word psychiatrist, which again, sounds serious and makes you think of loony bins. So I sort of felt like, both times when I had an interview with the neuro psych, they were assessing me to see if I was crazy. And, you know, like, so I was probably just trying to Well, I was trying to give as normal as a response as I could, and not say anything too crazy. And try to get out of the room as quickly as possible. Yeah. Now, I didn't really I've subsequently learned. That's not what a psychologist or neuropsychologist we can make these assumptions that we don't even realise we're making. Yes. And so anyway, when I'd had that initial quite short chat with a neuropsychologist that mentioned something about how in a chronic state, which chronic really just means anything, what beyond three months, things in all the neurons in your brain can become cross wired. And I was familiar with this term, because it was talked about in Norman George's book. But he just, I guess, something connected to make me realise that you could have a situation where as you've got head knocks in my situation over a period of time that are then followed by symptom onset, you also have an emotional response to that, because it's stressful. And you've after having done that a couple of times, you know, what's coming, and that's, so that leads to fear and stress and anxiety about that. And then over time, that can get cross wired into the mix. And so then, once it's cross wired in, if you have seen, you know, stress anxieties that similar, that can be the thing that actually sets off the symptom onset, not the NOC. And so that was, you know, he'd mentioned that I was like, Wow, that's fascinating. Like, yeah, initially, I was like, Oh, interesting. didn't relate it to me. Every now and then, but then, you know, I think after I don't know what this is, second or third time that my partner rolled over and elbowed me in the head, I'd got to be a bed, you know, sleeping with a pillow on my head,

Tasha Stanton: 1:35:09

very good ability to starfish, I

Robbie Frawley: 1:35:10

see something. So I was like, I can't live like this. You know, I can't be constantly stressed in my sleep that I'm gonna get elbowed in the head. And then I'm going to be wiped out for the next two months. But something about one of them. I thought that was so light, like, surely that couldn't have been enough to give me a concussion. And so it just planted this seed of if that wasn't enough to actually caused the symptoms. I was pretty stressed. Like I was probably a bit stressed, then, wasn't it? Robert? Yeah. You're worried about it, for sure. And you were assessing to see if he had symptoms, is it so I sort of maybe wonder if it's possible that that cross wiring thing that he mentioned is possible. And so I booked an appointment. And I think I get a little bit mixed on the timing. But I'd also started, maybe prematurely doing these interviews, that was probably also a bit of an active search for me of how other people recovered. And I had this fantastic conversation with the gentleman called we'll call who hopefully, if you've heard the the interview, and you won't have those listening. And he talked about how important the relationship with his neuroscience colleges has been. And he kept talking about our sinking, man, like, I didn't really talk to the neuropsychologist at all. And I was like, There's something I didn't miss something like I, he was really important to him. And he seems to be in a really good place. So maybe this is something worth re exploring. And so I think I came away from that and immediately booked in to see the neuro psychologist yet worth again, even though I was barely even going in there at this point, because basically on a break to kind of recoup before I reset and try it again. I went in, and sort of there was a different neuropsychologist in there at that point. And I said, Look, you know, I don't think you've ever met me, this is the backstory. I was told this. This is what's been happening. Do you think it's possible that this could be like Crosswater? It's my reaction to it emotionally getting concerned about getting hit that could actually be causing the symptom onset? And he's like, yeah, absolutely. Just got, okay. Yeah, absolutely. And then just kind of looked at me, like he was really good. He was that classic kind of guy who would just ask you a question very slowly and calmly and evenly. And then look. And it was so awkward. He just had that way of really just silence. And I was kind of like, I have to be just silence. He didn't add any more. I was like, Well, do you think you could help me with that? Like, do you think there's anything you could do to help me with that? And he's like, yeah, yeah, I could give you some tools as a great, like, let's, let's do it. And so he taught me this really helpful tool. It's really simple. It's really basic, but it's been fundamental for me, in my recovery, and I still use it, I think you can use it in everyday life, for any anything going forward. And basically, he said to me, Look, you know, that voice you have in your head, who sort of sits on your shoulder and tells you, you know, you're good at stuff, he's talking in your ear. He said, for me, I call him Fred. Like, give give him a name. Or give that person a name. For me, I call him Fred. And he said, Look, I have to give a presentation. So you know, I have to speak at conferences and every now and then I don't really like public speaking. And he said, so, you know, a month out from speaking presentation, Fred will start getting in my ear and telling me I you haven't prepared enough for this presentation. You don't even good at public speaking didn't really know what you're talking about. You're gonna be rubbish. And he said, Look, as soon as you become aware of a Fred telling you a story in that way, just say to yourself, Ah, I see what's happening here. Fred is telling one of these catastrophizing stories. It's not helpful to me now, however, so I'm not going to listen to it. Thank you, though for it. And that was it. So he tells me that sort of like, yeah, that's That's it. But I liked it. So I sort of was mulling on it and thinking about it. I like the way that instead of just telling Fred to bugger off and shut up, you kind of acknowledging and appreciating and thanking Fred for his input because ultimately, Fred, this little voice on his shoulder is is got your best interests at heart and is trying to help you and trying to protect you. But I suppose it's just differentiating yourself from the voice and standing back from it and going, okay, yes, there is this internal dialogue. And it's fearful. But it's not actually doesn't mean it's correct. So I can stand apart from that. And I think giving it a name helps with that. But I can stand apart from that and assess whether or not it's helpful. If it's not helpful, I'm not gonna listen to it. And I'll thank you for your input. They're not gonna listen to it. And so I sort of thought about this, and I thought about what name to give, to give my voice. And in the end, I landed on Bertie. And so my name is Robbie or Robert. Anyway, so for whatever reason, did birdie. And fortunately for me, I got two weeks later, or a week later, it was very soon after a very good opportunity to put this to practice. And that was, I was riding to work just along bike path as cruising along, and I was loving it when flying through my hair. And next minute, I was sailing through the air. And I think I'd hit a tree root. And so the front and then maybe, as a result, I'd kind of clench the brakes, you know, instinctively, and so the front wheel blocked. And so I just went sailing over the handlebars, and broke my elbow that also broke my helmet, like landed on my helmet rolled out of it. And if you'd told me that that was going to happen anytime in the previous seven years, six years a time. I would have just said why. I might be a vegetable. Like I don't know what that would have been the most terrifying thought I just absolutely. And so immediately, I kind of rolled out and I was like chit, chit, chit, chit, chit. And then I sort of thought, hang on. No, this is like perfect timing. You know, this is the perfect opportunity to put this to practice. And so I immediately started using that technique and saying, Ah, I see what's happening here. Bertie is telling one of these catastrophizing stories that because I've like landed on my broken my helmet and landed on my head that this is going to negatively, you know, it's just going to result in a confirmed concussion, or it's going to result in things flaring. But that's not actually helpful, Bertie, so I'm not actually going to listen to you. Thank you, though. And pretty much I was just doing that on a repeating cycle. For the next 24 to 48 hours mixed in with I think the original neuro psych it also taught me another technique about grounding, which people talk about in mindfulness, where you'll say to yourself, What can I What can I hear? And you'll then just really focus on okay, what can I hear so similar to as I was describing before, I can hear the projector thing over to my left, humming, can hear my voice. I can hear a slight hum over to my right, what can I see? What can I feel and going through those senses and which is a really helpful kind of grounding pulls you out of your head, pulls you into the present. It's quite easy to do. You can just keep doing it on cycle on and so really heavily was just focusing on those because nearly birdie would start sneaking in there. But was it a big enough knock? Like it was a pretty big knock? Was this tool really relevant? Big knocks like that and be like, Ah, I see what's happening. Come birdie. Thank you. I see. Yeah. And so just repeatedly, repeatedly doing that. And the symptoms never started. And that was the most you know if the if the match if Norman Doidge book was the kind of match at the start. That was just the most powerful reinforcement of that tool. And I suppose the science of what was going on in my head. And yeah, it was really, really powerful.

Tasha Stanton: 1:44:07

Yeah, that's incredible. Because you you hear that story as someone like I trained as a physiotherapist originally, and we learned a little bit about concussions and it would be something that I would say, I it's not unreasonable. That birdie is saying that, do you know what I mean? Fair enough. Birdie, but I think you're right, that is just that's such a, a huge coming together of everything, that all of the things that you've learned and that you did, and that kind of put you in that right place to be able to deal and have strategies in place for what to do. And that's it's incredible, because I think like we were having a little bit of this discussion before about how sometimes voicing things and verbalising and being aware of what those voices might be saying Whether or not you hear it as a real voice, where it's it's that feeling that is induced by your thoughts around that, that issue that just can be so powerful. And being aware of it, I don't think is something that we necessarily, it comes like, it comes easily to us like, I do think it's probably something that we end up having to learn. And that balance between being very aware, but also aware of what your thoughts and beliefs and things like that can also have upon symptoms. So not only were body symptoms, being aware of the other influences of that, so it's pretty cool stuff, man.

Robbie Frawley: 1:45:39

Thank you. Well, you're a massive part of it. And I should actually, there's another little part of that the reason I was writing to work, and that is because the pain revolution, because I was still subscribed to the emails. Yeah, I was still engaged with it, it still made sense to me, I still emailed you on occasion. Yeah, just sort of touching base and giving you updates on where things were at. And I just followed it, I found it interesting. And I knew that it was helpful in some way, as I've referred to, before, I just didn't know how to tap into it for my situation. And I suppose there's this discussion of protection over protection that we've spoken about. And so something in my mind started to just sort of trigger around. You know, there's all these things and I'm not doing and maybe I'm being overly protective of myself, like, really, every time I say no to something, no, I can't come surfing, I'd love to come surfing, but I can't because blah, blah, blah, you know, I can't go skiing with you. Because now I can't go cycling because blah, blah, blah. Every time I just realised every time I say no to something, effectively, I'd created these walls, I picture a glass wall around me, above me. And every time I said no, it was like a strengthening those walls and that ceiling that was just gonna contain me in it. I really what triggered that. Because I'd never thought that thought of that before. But so I just sort of suddenly thought I need to break through these walls and the ceiling that I've constructed around myself before. They're like brick walls that I can't get through. And so I'd obviously always been interested in the pain revolution and that ride from Melbourne to Adelaide. And you know, subsequent years, it's been travelling through different areas and different regions every time targeting a different area and stopping in different regional centres and spreading the good word of pain sides. And and so I'd sort of been interested in so I wonder, I wonder if one day I could do that. But it always seemed far off and fanciful. And I think my parents pretty much banned me from riding riding a bike because it was far too dangerous risk reward wasn't there, you're on the road exposed to people. So there's something I think there was maybe the call out for the next pain route, which we're going to be through so Victoria. And so that was just this again, this little thought that aim is exactly what I need to do. Like it is the risk reward. It just doesn't make any sense. Like if you looked at it logically, it'd be like, No, you don't. There's far there's ways you can challenge yourself or something that don't expose you to this risk. Because if you've had multiple concussions, you've taken seven years to get better. And then you go, what you're gonna go riding on the road for 900 club 900 k's and then you got to train for that. What do you think your chances of not getting? How many people get knocked off by a lot? Like, what are your chances of that happening? And not getting knocked off? Like it's doesn't make any sense. So again, I didn't tell my parents I am seen. Well, this comes from a position where I've been generally very, very, I've told them everything. Yeah, they've been incredibly support network. But I think that was also something about realising I needed to stand on my own feet. And I needed to make decisions sometimes that might not necessarily have their support. If I deeply within myself, yeah, knew that that was the right decision. And so I did run it past, a friend who is both a physio and understands pain science, and knows my family and knows me very, very well. So that I could truth test it and just make sure I wasn't getting carried away. And they were very supportive. And I just remember when they kind of I told them what I was thinking and the thought process and why. And they just said yes, absolutely. Like it was always like with the with the neuro psych like but they were much more enthusiastic. And ours remember hanging up from it was a very short conversation, I'd left the office to make this phone call before I either did or didn't sign up, because there's a cutoff date. And I just remember The excitement and exhilaration and just rightness of the decision that I felt was just so profound. Like I was just like, yeah. Like just fist pumping like in like, it does seem so weird, but it was just felt so right decision. And I've probably just learned over time to trust my gut instinct, my intuition a lot more even if sometimes doesn't make something doesn't make sense logically but you feel really within your core that it's the right decision. And so I did that. And I committed to training and so that subsequent fall that I described was I was training for this ride and, and so I suppose it's important because I've made this commitment that hang on, I'm I am being overly protective of myself, I need to challenge these this over protective mechanisms like conscious yes, that I'm aware of before I imprison myself in it. And then there was a deeper level of subconscious or unconscious overprotection. And so probably that even just changes, you know, coming off the bike instead of then, if I hadn't made that decision, and I was just randomly writing, I would have been lambasted myself for being so silly in taking such a risk, whereas instead, that wasn't in question anymore. I just committed to doing this and it was the right call.

Tasha Stanton: 1:51:18

Yeah, that's, I think that has a lot of merit to the idea of, you know, those things that really deep down, feel like the right decision for you. Because I think at the end of the day, we're the only ones that are in charge of unable to do a lot of things to shape our future. And if there's something that is really, you know, really pulling and really saying this is the right thing for me. I feel like when we don't listen to those things, I always worry, those are the things that we regret.

Robbie Frawley: 1:51:47

Yes. That's been my

Tasha Stanton: 1:51:48

experience. And regret is hard. So I applaud the bravery. I think this That was amazing. I was just very sad. I didn't get to come on that one. Oh, yeah. It was a great ride. Yeah. So what was what was the, I guess, the most favourite? Or what was the best part of that ride? Well, you were doing.

Robbie Frawley: 1:52:06

So the ride itself was amazing. I trained on a road bike, I guess over the next six months training up for that, which was very hard. Yeah, working it through just below threshold, again, different thresholds, really. But, and then did the ride. And I suppose by that point, I just had confidence in myself, I guess, having made that decision to be, as you say, courageously sort of tackle it. And then also, the learning having come off the bike and the reinforcement of birdie in the story of birdie, I still used that. Sure, I'd have situations where I need to use it, but I had confidence in so I was sort of the ride just further reinforced my ability, because probably previously I wouldn't have that's quite an insurance activity, like I would go out and training and do 175 k's and be on the bike for seven hours. Again, just even from I probably wouldn't have coped with that previously, just from an fatigue perspective, was I didn't have any queries around that. And my body just responded, Well, it's an so the ride was great, loved it. But the biggest thing for me was I would just tried to go to every session I could get to so every day would ride somewhere. And then that year, there was, I think, the year that you did all of your writing, and then you were presenting. And obviously, over the years, you there was the realisation that that was maybe a bit much. And

Tasha Stanton: 1:53:29

they had an educational team. Come on. Yeah. And

Robbie Frawley: 1:53:31

so it got split out. And so there was an education team doing the, the bulk of the presenting. And so the riders weren't coming in really fatigued. And so we couldn't always go to the sessions, because sometimes just because we were going there earlier in the day, but these were sessions where again, there was a public session, and then a health professional session in each town we visited. So every time we got in in time for those I would go. And I just found it really reinforcing of all those messages, because every day you were hearing the same messages, but they are from different people were presenting them. And even though 80% of the slides are the same, they would do it in their own way. And they would do it with their own spin and emphasising things telling their own stories. And so every day I would get something new from it. Or it would make sense a new light bulb would go off or would reinforce something that needed to be reinforced. And the magic was just there every day and you'd hear you can see the impact it was having on people within the community so that for me was that was the absolute magic of it. Yeah, cool. When we've been talking about this over protective over protection, and Bertie. I actually do recognise now that and I've got to be careful in how I word this but my family did become a second version of Bertie with the same positive intent and 100% wanting the best for you. But there, I did also get messaging from them not to do things. And to just, you know, because they were concerned, maybe they'd seen me in her understate over many years over and over and over again, as I say, because probably when I did, they saw me all sort of all out. But as a result, it just, I needed to be aware of that. And that was part of making my own decisions and not telling them everything in the end, because I had to be against it and back from it and go hang on, is this messaging, I'm getting helpful for me and my recovery? If it is good, but I need to be able to stand separate from it and assess that, and acknowledge and think it, but make my own decision about whether I act on it.

Tasha Stanton: 1:55:55

This is it's so interesting that you say that because I it to me mirrors some of the principles that we look into things like self regulated learning, where what it is it's assessing that evidence or that information that's coming in and saying, How useful is this for for me right now? How well does this match with the other things that I that I know, or that I have have accrued? What's the source of this information? How much do I do I trust it in this case,

Robbie Frawley: 1:56:25

which is where it's really true with family is 99.9% of time? Trust them? 100%?

Tasha Stanton: 1:56:30

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think but I think that the fact that there is that process going on, is amazing. Because that's exactly. I think where we would want the goal to be in terms of taking in any new information. Because I think that's probably one of the biggest challenges. Just speaking very generally, is all the information that comes out on things like Facebook and or even just anywhere on the internet asked Dr. Google that can be can take you down hard paths, particularly in certain chronic conditions. So I think that point is really, really important of yet sussing out and thinking. Is this important, too relevant to me? That's really good. Amazing.

Robbie Frawley: 1:57:15

And I'll just tack on to that bit to my family. Yeah, your support and kindness and generosity through the whole journey has been absolutely sensational and life affirming. So thank you very much.

Tasha Stanton: 1:57:34

Big Sims. Yeah. Is there anything else that we've missed that you wanted to add?

Robbie Frawley: 1:57:41

Trust your gut, and, as you talked about, and really just be curious, and be kind to yourself, and to those around you and try to be patient. And that's really difficult. And get good people around you and and keep keep on going?

Tasha Stanton: 1:57:59

Yeah, it's interesting. From the, our side of the pain, pain science side of things, one of the things that we do often identify is that not every, you know, therapist or health professional that you work with is a fit for you. And that's okay. And if something doesn't seem to be, you know, working well, it's also okay to switch and get another one that you can identify with a little bit more, because I think there's lots of different ways to go about this. And just even the way that some people approach it might not work as well for you. And there's no, there's no bad feelings. There's nothing about that you you're on your journey. And you want to find the people that are your, your, you know, your strength, your people, your coaches.

Robbie Frawley: 1:58:42

Absolutely. So it's a be brave, just you got, and continue to challenge yourself and keep trying to get better. But having said that, oh, it's really tricky. Isn't the wheels, you can understand more about that around not trying to sort of not comparing yourself to the past, but rather, were you thinking about what you might be able to do in the future. And I think that's quite important, too. I think I was that was not a learning from well, I was I was constantly sort of comparing myself with Rose coloured glasses to what I was like before, and really, you know, the rose coloured glasses, portrayal I was putting on myself before meant that you were never taught and you never had a bad day, you never had a headache, and it's just unrealistic. And so it's helpful to realise that and stop comparing yourself and go, Well, I'm here. What might be possible? Could I walk for 10 minutes?

Tasha Stanton: 1:59:39

I like that reframing.

Robbie Frawley: 1:59:41

That's sort of pretty much all I've got, but what any other observations or additions that you think you've got or that you think are worth adding?

Tasha Stanton: 1:59:54

When did you have the moment where you realise that the book that you were carrying that you thought was gonna help was in English? Or do you remember when that was

Robbie Frawley: 2:00:03

not? I think it was necessarily. It was like a transition over time. I think it was more when I look back. Yeah. And then I remember, look thinking about that, when I met, you're probably doing the pain revolution myself, you know, at the end of that journey was sort of the fruition of that, but I probably already I don't know if that it wasn't a sort of lightbulb thing, but probably even doing that week, you know, I'd obviously had a significant learning leading into it during the training phase. And then, probably that reinforcement of all those lessons, and just reinforcing this is, I could have just read this book, and apply it to myself day one. Yeah. I probably got that over that week or over that, you know, six months from signing up. Yeah. Completing the ride. Yeah.

Tasha Stanton: 2:00:53

And so if you had to say, so if there's people listening that have post concussion syndrome, what would be you know, the one most important thing, or five most important things, I don't know how many, what, but what would be the key thing that you would really want them to take away?

Robbie Frawley: 2:01:12

He's tricky. First thing I'd say is, it's really tough. And I know it's really tough. And I know it's really scary. And you want to be better now or tomorrow. And that's frustrating, and intimidating. And you're still wondering even now, if your situation is the same, but I would say, the brain and the body, marvellous miraculous things, and that you can and you will recover.

Tasha Stanton: 2:01:47

And I think, especially if people haven't heard that before, from a health professional or from anyone that they've dealt with, that is a pretty life changing message.

Robbie Frawley: 2:02:24

Hey, guys, it's Robbie. Again. If you got this far. Wow. Well done. I'll have show notes on everything. We talked about this episode on the podcast website. There's a link to that in the podcast description, along with a full transcript. If you find that easier to follow along, or to find what you need. I do need to highlight that I'm not a medical professional. And that whilst Tasha is a physiotherapist, the advice and learnings which we share during our discussions are not medical advice, and should be considered and reviewed in consultation with a trusted medical professional prior to being acted upon. These are our learnings from our experiences. Take what is valuable, and leave the rest. Next episode, I'll be speaking with Lloyd Polkinghorne, a 36 year old newspaper owner and editor and a former mixed irrigator and father of two from Beryl in New South Wales. Lloyd was injured by a misfiring shotgun in 2013 was assisting neighbouring farmers to clean birds from their crops. The injuries who received were largely invisible, but the effects upon him was significant. He's one of the most resilient and courageous men I've come across, and I really look forward to sharing his journey of recovery with you. Until then, I wish you courage and energy on your own journey forward. Thanks for listening