Note: Time stamps for the chapter episodes are based on the full episode recording.
Robbie Frawley
Welcome to Chapter 4. In this chapter I explain the major learnings which helped me find my way back to 100%.
Robbie Frawley 1:10:43
So you work predominantly in pain science. That's right. And so it's probably a great, really good segue. I guess a lot of the things I was just mentioning, were kind of like, I guess, additional small things that have been beneficial to various degrees. But if I'm really sort of looking at the standout things that were helpful, I guess, from that point of, after Grace McKellar, one of them was meeting you and the team from UTSA. And so that was to your academic researcher from the University of South Australia. And what are the groups or affiliations need to be mentioned there?
Tasha Stanton 1:11:20
Not too much. Mainly, you need to say now Okay, yeah.
Robbie Frawley 1:11:24
And so, I guess my housemate I live with two housemates. At this time. This was probably two or three years posts, post accidents on a very functional network, I think full time. But there's a whole lot of things that's probably about 80%. If I was to rate myself, I'm exercising I think swimming before work some days, maybe even riding a bit. I think I'd reintegrated some social activities as my sort of surplus energy increase, because that's been huge in my life, like I'm people are everything to me. And so I got back down to Melbourne, which was absolutely terrifying. The first I remember, I was on the bus down there. And I was just like, What am I doing? What am I gonna do if I just shut down when I get there? Anyway, I didn't like I had some like little quiet times in the alley where well, I, you know, why disappeared from my friends in the pub. And it wasn't drinking, obviously. But, you know, I saw some people. And then I returned to one and yes, it was draining. But it was also such a sense of exhilaration and triumph for such a big step, you know, gained forward of like, travelling to Melbourne and see seeing people again. And so you know, things were slowly grinding up and you know, improving. But there was some fundamental things that are still struggling with and they were tolerance to impact. So I couldn't have been trying to re acclimatised myself to jogging that hole through basically through that period. And I really struggled with that. So I'd graded up from sort of jogging in the pool, and two sets of 10, two sort of getting shallower and then onto grass. And I'd make some headway, but I'd always not relapse, but like to basically descend into sort of symptom onset and having to like pair right back and go into recovery mode for a couple of weeks now, I'd get a bit burnt by it. And I'd probably just be like, Ah, I don't really need to jog like, that's where I'd prefer just to be able to survive. And so there are a whole lot of things I still wasn't doing and I had this interest in neuroplasticity and my housemate one of my housemates at the time was a physio. And she had studied at the University of South Australia. And she'd studied one semester under Lorimer Moseley. And she was aware because she was a physio at the hospital that there was a group coming through town on this particular day. And now we're doing talks about pain sites. And then it was related to neuroplasticity. And so she said, I, Robbie, you be interested in this, you should head along. So I was like, Oh, no plasticity, I'm interested. And so I normally probably wouldn't be doing things after work. But I, there was a public session, I think at five o'clock at 530 in Lighthouse Theatre in wonderful. And David Butler was leading that. And then I went to that and it was all pain. Sorry. So this group, the group was called the pain revolution. And it was led by Lorimer Moseley, and David Butler and yourself and anyone else that needs to be added?
Tasha Stanton 1:14:29
Always Tracy
Robbie Frawley 1:14:32
I didn't meet Tracy I suppose until years later. Yeah. And, and my understanding of it and again, jumping if if you need to, was that this group? Pain scientists. And my understanding is that as a group, you are at the forefront of pain science globally. And basically like rock stars in the pain science. Well, that's how I describe your rock stars in the pain science.
Tasha Stanton 1:14:59
They get some new clothes.
Robbie Frawley 1:15:02
And you're all phenomenal humans as well. And anyway, so my understanding is that, I guess the group realised that there's probably about a 20 year gap between where the sciences and where general knowledge in the community and even to a large degree in how health practitioners treating pain sufferers, so people who are suffering from chronic or persistent pain. And so this tour, if you like, the group was riding from Melbourne to Adelaide over a week. And every day, you were stopping in a different regional centre, and giving public presentations about pain science, basically, to lift the education of pain science within the community, but also to health professionals along the way, which is really clever. And so I happen to become aware of this stuff in one bubble. And I saw David Butler present to all of these chronic pain patients. And that was amazing. And, you know, really vibrant presentations. And then there was mentioned that there was a public out like a health professional session after and I was just like, I'm going to sell and I'm pretty, very honest, sort of, you know, straight down the line, so the person and so, but I was like I'm going to the session. I was like, I have to make up. You know that I'm studying physio or something to do this. I I'm just going to have to prepare it beforehand. Yes, I'm a physio
Tasha Stanton 1:16:29
straight face. I'm ready.
Robbie Frawley 1:16:33
So I went to the health professional session after which was out at Deakin University in Larmer. presented there, even though everything being mentioned was talking about chronic pain, everything resonated for me. And it was like listening to the Norman Doidge book and his examples of I was just sitting bolt upright. Normally, I would probably be in bed at this time, because it's like 10 o'clock at night. I mean, I don't do drugs, but I presume it was like being on cocaine, like I was just so high, I was just high on life. From this information, there's hope. And what you got that you're sharing these these learnings and these stories, and this science, which was amazing. And yeah, it was really, really impactful. To me and I have described this previously it has, I think that night, it was almost like a, I got given this book, you know, I was holding this kind of pretend book in my, in my hands that I knew could help me because I could see how it was helping people with chronic pain. And I could see that it was relevant to my situation. And so I thought, Okay, I just need to, I've got this book that's going to fix me, or help me. And it's been it's written in a different language, because it's about pain, and I'm trying to recover from post concussion. So it's like, I need to translate it into post concussion. So I was psyched. For the next few years I was carrying this book ran, just thinking to myself, ah, yeah, like, I've got this book with the answers. And I'm gonna learn to read it one day, but I've got it, like, I'm aware of it. Which is a big thing still, because like, sometimes if you're not aware of the book, or you don't have the book, it's a big difference. So I was that was very sustaining. And, you know, subs subsequently realised that I can read it, it's written in English. And the way I see it now, everything that from my experience that is talked about in the chronic pain science, and you know, in David and Lauren, his book explain pain, which is another book I'd recommend, it's written in the context of pain, and persistent pain. And I guess, the science behind that, and how, you know, protect Amadeu works and the systems in our body work to protect us. And that's effectively what chronic pain is an overprotective pain system. But I've subsequently learned that it's chronic state, like after probably, I don't know, much more than six weeks. I'm not
Tasha Stanton 1:19:06
sure exactly when but we go three months, but you're very good. Probably after three
Robbie Frawley 1:19:11
months, you know, really, my, certainly over the last few years, my symptoms and symptom onset and stuff has really probably been very similar. And it's, I see it as my system being over protective. So once I've learned to understand that and understand how that happens, and why I can turn that down. And all of a sudden, I'm not getting symptom onset. And I'm just it's like, that's been the fight. That's been really fundamental thing, that knowledge and understanding that that's completely applicable to me and my experience now. And I think it's applicable to a variety of, you know, neurological issues beyond pain.
Tasha Stanton 1:19:53
I agree with you because I think it to me listening to your story, I hear a protective feature of Fatigue, a protective feature of, you know, fog, and cognitive impairment, it
Robbie Frawley 1:20:08
is,
Tasha Stanton 1:20:09
seems it was not unreasonable, I don't think to think about the way that our systems react as, when it's too much. We, in order to stop us as humans, when it's too much there has to be a sensation or a symptom, because otherwise we don't listen. And we see this even you know, when people have an acute ankle sprain, and everything starts to hurt, we'll, that's so adaptive, because as humans, we will push through things. And unless it hurts a lot, we won't stop. And so it's really interesting, I think, to start to think about the extent to which this exists in other neurological type conditions as the one that you're speaking of, or, you know, things like stroke as well, we get lots of fatigue post stroke, that how different is this, we might just be starting from a slightly different state of a nervous system. But there's still neuroplasticity, there's still changeability, and there's still the need to protect. So I don't know, I like it. I think I, I think that there's a lot of scope for that to really help.
Robbie Frawley 1:21:15
I just feel I'd realised halfway through, I still need to circle back. The reason I told that story, and I didn't need to tell the whole story then, but was to explain that this is what you described. And that's that sim cloud safety and me cloud is coming from a pain science. Education, yes, description. And the reason it's DMC might sound funny, but it's, it's effectively an acronym that's used, because it's easy for patients to remember. Because we all know what a DME is the MCM. And so dim in this case is di m, hyphen sim. So danger in me safety in me, and it's just a clever acronym to help people remember that, okay, let's become aware of the things that are effectively emphasising danger in our systems or are threatening to us, and try to lessen our exposure to those where we can, or switch them off altogether. And let's become aware of the things that are representing safety in me signals. And that could be catching up with family or friends, it could be doing an activity that you enjoy, it could be taking an active role in your recovery. And then by reducing your exposure to danger, many things that could be I don't know what some good examples of those
Tasha Stanton 1:22:32
some of it can be changing the noises you make when you move. So some people like when they're in pain they do, like big, when they get out of a chair, it's sometimes could even just be stopping making those noises can help. Yep, it could be, you know, deciding actually, for some people, if I'm going to go on a walk, I don't really enjoy walking with that person. Yeah, I'm not probably going to go for a walk with them because I get stressed or they make me feel bad and not. And that can be enough. And so from the the basic science, I guess of that is that the studies that we do, where we manipulate these different things in labs, we show that it changes the threshold. So the things the your threshold that you were kind of talking about for pain, it changes the threshold at which it will come on which pain on sets. That's right. And it also will change. If we give someone something that hurts, we'll keep that identical. And those changing those different things around people will change how much that exact same stimulus hurts. Wow. So so that's how we that's the science, I guess, behind why we we think those things matter. And we think that we should care about them is that we see from a very controlled environment that they've changed that experience. And that's the idea. So you have it exactly right is that the more that you can enhance and bring in those safety and me's those Sims around you, as well as reducing where you can danger in knees, then you start to push the balance towards safety and not the need to protect and your threshold basically goes up, it takes more to elicit pain.
Robbie Frawley 1:23:59
Okay, so I'm going to set can I say that course simpler term just from understanding. If that's saying the person a you've got person A and person B that you know, the carbon copies of each other in this case, but we're just going to give them different exposure, one person, so the same injury, yep, same treatment. But one person is doing a whole variety of things that give them safety messages, and that might be catching up with family and doing things they enjoy. And the other person is maybe catching up with someone who wrote stress for them or
Tasha Stanton 1:24:33
Yeah, or seeing the home and not even talking to anyone isolating themselves
Robbie Frawley 1:24:38
that their pain experience is going to be different. Yes. And the person like in a chronic pain situation, the person who's got a good ratio of Sims and a low ratio of teams is going to experience lower pain.
Tasha Stanton 1:24:50
Yes, well, yeah. And we try to do those experiments by making having someone be their own control. So we randomise them to different and but every When always does all the conditions. So then you actually know that that system is the same. Yeah. Because otherwise, that's a hard comparison. But yeah, no, that's exactly right.
Robbie Frawley 1:25:09
Yeah. And so then I suppose what we're saying in my situation is that instead of pain onset, it's symptom onset. So for my symptoms are cognitive fog and fatigue and headache and nausea instability, like vertigo, on stableness, that they will be affected by those things. That's exactly right. Beautiful.
Tasha Stanton 1:25:32
I guess one of the things that I think was that we sort of talked about a little bit before that, I think would be really interesting to chat about is, you mentioned that you had this big multidisciplinary team that you saw originally, and that there may have been one person on this team that you felt that you might not have got as much out of it as you could. Can you tell me a little bit about? Yeah, absolutely. That experience, oh,
Robbie Frawley 1:25:57
give you a little bit more leading to so I only saw that team in Geelong, you know, say the three times. And then basically, I'd been working my job in Wantable, for six years. This point on, this was three years ago. And I loved it, and I loved one ball. But I needed to sort of do something else professionally, and also kind of hit a plateau in my recovery. And I couldn't make any headway with this. Adapting to impact. And so there were still a variety of activities, like surfing and jogging, and really, you know, even if I didn't want to go, you know, I had a lot of mates getting married. And I didn't want to go to a box party. Because there'd be a lot of horseplay. If mates, we'd like to have a cup on and jostle, I'd be really concerned about the impact of that on my head. And so, even though I was highly functional, I suppose then you adapt to that. But I want more, which is good and bad. But I still I suppose yearning for more recovery. And so I sought, you know, sort out what, what else could help. And I spoke to my team in Geelong, and they said, Well, look, there's this concussion clinic in Melbourne at the net worth, and they have got a dedicated concussion clinic. And I've actually run a running programme. So that might be worth exploring. And I saw up perfect like, I'm wanting to get back to running their a concussion clinic. And, you know, I had heard in one regard, or know that they were the best regarded concussion clinic in Victoria. So as a river, so went down, very similar approach. In that case, it was I think, in your head person was a professor of neurology or neuro rehab or something, not a trauma rehab, so slightly different, but probably their understanding of the brain and brain science was maybe a bit better, but very similar approach at a team did all those initial tests again. And then I basically worked with an exercise physiologist who was really very specific graded a climatization, to impact programme. So that was on a treadmill, and then grading it up over weeks. And I did improve, I think I got up to 12 minutes over 18 months or something. But still, I was, it was I was always at threshold. Yeah, I'd probably been sub threshold for a period because I got to a good functional level. And then I was working just below it. But I was working a really intense job where I was working long hours was stressful. I was living in Melbourne. So I probably had less, probably some of my seams, in hindsight, had been taken away, and probably had some more depth. And then I was working at threshold all the time. And I was constantly sort of fatigued constantly on the edge of a headache. And also my emotional responses I found were more elevated. So if I had done a running session yesterday, I would go in there. So once every fortnight and on the in between periods, I might do a run every three days or as they suggested, and I would just find that would just always be on the edge of tipping over. And when I was tipping over, you know if I was at work, and you're working 12 hour days, and I would just find it because I was getting much better at awareness, self awareness at this point. So I would just find that I was reacting internally to situations strange like differently than I normally would a bit more reactive. Yeah. So meditation at that point became really helpful to kind of try to balance that bring me down, but it was really difficult. And I was also I'd taken on more and more so I was president of an industry association at that point. Having been on the committee for a few years and running all these events like I was doing a lot so I'd taken us playing a whole lot more sport but it just not an impact wise. So you know I was doing really well. But I was still aware of things I was wasn't doing. And this was my try to get there. And it was, had me against the wall. And I sort of got to a point where I was like, I couldn't sustain it, something had to give. And then something happened, my partner at the time rolled over in their sleep, and elbowed me in the head and kind of woke up. And they're like, whoa, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Like, you know, they were just asleep. Yeah. And I probably would just wouldn't get sleepy. But instead, I kind of woke up to them. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And so I was like, whoa, what? What happened? Now? I should get scared. Yeah. And so effectively, then
Robbie Frawley 1:30:41
I was thinking, oh, gosh, like, I've just got, he didn't hit? Am I okay, and you stay straightaway start sort of assessing? Do I have symptoms? And I guess the context for that is I had noticed, over the past few years that you know, you would inevitably get knocks, so you would get out of the car, you might knock absent mindedly knock your head as you get out of the car. And because I was so I'd had so many recurrent issues of getting minor knocks and then getting symptom exacerbation, because it's probably working your threshold. I was very sensitive to that. My awareness of that was probably over sensitised. And if I ever did bump my head, or someone bumped me roughly, I would be sort of then looking for. Am I with it? Do I have a headache? Am I
Tasha Stanton 1:31:31
tired? Yeah. Is that cognitive impairment coming in?
Robbie Frawley 1:31:34
Exactly. And so as soon as you start doing that, like, you're gonna find something. And so I started doing that in the middle of the night. Anyway, I went to bed, woke up the next day, train wreck. And it was rough. And so probably, I feel like I was clawing my way back for the next two months trying to survive. And that was were coming back the hand right in front of your face. Let's just get get up, get to work. Yeah, like that became really important, had the last couple of events of my presidency, including Ronnie to do this big speech. And I had last two weeks of this job. And then like all these, so it was just I just had to, like, get across so I could slump across the line. Thankfully, I could slump across the line. But anyway, did that clawed my way back over a few months, got back to as kind of good to go again. And then happened again. And and same things that happen. And but something in my mind kind of triggered. And I remembered this conversation that I'd had with. So I mentioned I part of the team was a neuro psychologist. So I something triggered this conversation I had with this neuro psychologist when I joined when I went to the with, you know, for the reassessment. Yeah, I'd kept it pretty short. Because I don't really know what psychologist does, or neuropsychologist but it sounds pretty serious. And it just makes me think of the word psychiatrist, which again, sounds serious and makes you think of loony bins. So I sort of felt like, both times when I had an interview with the neuro psych, they were assessing me to see if I was crazy. And, you know, like, so I was probably just trying to Well, I was trying to give as normal as a response as I could, and not say anything too crazy. And try to get out of the room as quickly as possible. Yeah. Now, I didn't really I've subsequently learned. That's not what a psychologist or neuropsychologist we can make these assumptions that we don't even realise we're making. Yes. And so anyway, when I'd had that initial quite short chat with a neuropsychologist that mentioned something about how in a chronic state, which chronic really just means anything, what beyond three months, things in all the neurons in your brain can become cross wired. And I was familiar with this term, because it was talked about in Norman George's book. But he just, I guess, something connected to make me realise that you could have a situation where as you've got head knocks in my situation over a period of time that are then followed by symptom onset, you also have an emotional response to that, because it's stressful. And you've after having done that a couple of times, you know, what's coming, and that's, so that leads to fear and stress and anxiety about that. And then over time, that can get cross wired into the mix. And so then, once it's cross wired in, if you have seen, you know, stress anxieties that similar, that can be the thing that actually sets off the symptom onset, not the NOC. And so that was, you know, he'd mentioned that I was like, Wow, that's fascinating. Like, yeah, initially, I was like, Oh, interesting. didn't relate it to me. Every now and then, but then, you know, I think after I don't know what this is, second or third time that my partner rolled over and elbowed me in the head, I'd got to be a bed, you know, sleeping with a pillow on my head,
Tasha Stanton 1:35:09
very good ability to starfish, I
Robbie Frawley 1:35:10
see something. So I was like, I can't live like this. You know, I can't be constantly stressed in my sleep that I'm gonna get elbowed in the head. And then I'm going to be wiped out for the next two months. But something about one of them. I thought that was so light, like, surely that couldn't have been enough to give me a concussion. And so it just planted this seed of if that wasn't enough to actually caused the symptoms. I was pretty stressed. Like I was probably a bit stressed, then, wasn't it? Robert? Yeah. You're worried about it, for sure. And you were assessing to see if he had symptoms, is it so I sort of maybe wonder if it's possible that that cross wiring thing that he mentioned is possible. And so I booked an appointment. And I think I get a little bit mixed on the timing. But I'd also started, maybe prematurely doing these interviews, that was probably also a bit of an active search for me of how other people recovered. And I had this fantastic conversation with the gentleman called we'll call who hopefully, if you've heard the the interview, and you won't have those listening. And he talked about how important the relationship with his neuroscience colleges has been. And he kept talking about our sinking, man, like, I didn't really talk to the neuropsychologist at all. And I was like, There's something I didn't miss something like I, he was really important to him. And he seems to be in a really good place. So maybe this is something worth re exploring. And so I think I came away from that and immediately booked in to see the neuro psychologist yet worth again, even though I was barely even going in there at this point, because basically on a break to kind of recoup before I reset and try it again. I went in, and sort of there was a different neuropsychologist in there at that point. And I said, Look, you know, I don't think you've ever met me, this is the backstory. I was told this. This is what's been happening. Do you think it's possible that this could be like Crosswater? It's my reaction to it emotionally getting concerned about getting hit that could actually be causing the symptom onset? And he's like, yeah, absolutely. Just got, okay. Yeah, absolutely. And then just kind of looked at me, like he was really good. He was that classic kind of guy who would just ask you a question very slowly and calmly and evenly. And then look. And it was so awkward. He just had that way of really just silence. And I was kind of like, I have to be just silence. He didn't add any more. I was like, Well, do you think you could help me with that? Like, do you think there's anything you could do to help me with that? And he's like, yeah, yeah, I could give you some tools as a great, like, let's, let's do it. And so he taught me this really helpful tool. It's really simple. It's really basic, but it's been fundamental for me, in my recovery, and I still use it, I think you can use it in everyday life, for any anything going forward. And basically, he said to me, Look, you know, that voice you have in your head, who sort of sits on your shoulder and
Robbie Frawley 1:38:32
tells you, you know, you're good at stuff, he's talking in your ear. He said, for me, I call him Fred. Like, give give him a name. Or give that person a name. For me, I call him Fred. And he said, Look, I have to give a presentation. So you know, I have to speak at conferences and every now and then I don't really like public speaking. And he said, so, you know, a month out from speaking presentation, Fred will start getting in my ear and telling me I you haven't prepared enough for this presentation. You don't even good at public speaking didn't really know what you're talking about. You're gonna be rubbish. And he said, Look, as soon as you become aware of a Fred telling you a story in that way, just say to yourself, Ah, I see what's happening here. Fred is telling one of these catastrophizing stories. It's not helpful to me now, however, so I'm not going to listen to it. Thank you, though for it. And that was it. So he tells me that sort of like, yeah, that's That's it. But I liked it. So I sort of was mulling on it and thinking about it. I like the way that instead of just telling Fred to bugger off and shut up, you kind of acknowledging and appreciating and thanking Fred for his input because ultimately, Fred, this little voice on his shoulder is is got your best interests at heart and is trying to help you and trying to protect you. But I suppose it's just differentiating yourself from the voice and standing back from it and going, okay, yes, there is this internal dialogue. And it's fearful. But it's not actually doesn't mean it's correct. So I can stand apart from that. And I think giving it a name helps with that. But I can stand apart from that and assess whether or not it's helpful. If it's not helpful, I'm not gonna listen to it. And I'll thank you for your input. They're not gonna listen to it. And so I sort of thought about this, and I thought about what name to give, to give my voice. And in the end, I landed on Bertie. And so my name is Robbie or Robert. Anyway, so for whatever reason, did birdie. And fortunately for me, I got two weeks later, or a week later, it was very soon after a very good opportunity to put this to practice. And that was, I was riding to work just along bike path as cruising along, and I was loving it when flying through my hair. And next minute, I was sailing through the air. And I think I'd hit a tree root. And so the front and then maybe, as a result, I'd kind of clench the brakes, you know, instinctively, and so the front wheel blocked. And so I just went sailing over the handlebars, and broke my elbow that also broke my helmet, like landed on my helmet rolled out of it. And if you'd told me that that was going to happen anytime in the previous seven years, six years a time. I would have just said why. I might be a vegetable. Like I don't know what that would have been the most terrifying thought I just absolutely. And so immediately, I kind of rolled out and I was like chit, chit, chit, chit, chit. And then I sort of thought, hang on. No, this is like perfect timing. You know, this is the perfect opportunity to put this to practice. And so I immediately started using that technique and saying, Ah, I see what's happening here. Bertie is telling one of these catastrophizing stories that because I've like landed on my broken my helmet and landed on my head that this is going to negatively, you know, it's just going to result in a confirmed concussion, or it's going to result in things flaring. But that's not actually helpful, Bertie, so I'm not actually going to listen to you. Thank you, though. And pretty much I was just doing that on a repeating cycle. For the next 24 to 48 hours mixed in with I think the original neuro psych it also taught me another technique about grounding, which people talk about in mindfulness, where you'll say to yourself, What can I What can I hear? And you'll then just really focus on okay, what can I hear so similar to as I was describing before, I can hear the projector thing over to my left, humming, can hear my voice. I can hear a slight hum over to my right, what can I see? What can I feel and going through those senses and which is a really helpful kind of grounding pulls you out of your head, pulls you into the present. It's quite easy to do. You can just keep doing it on cycle on and so really heavily was just focusing on those because nearly birdie would start sneaking in there. But was it a big enough knock? Like it was a pretty big knock? Was this tool really relevant? Big knocks like that and be like, Ah, I see what's happening. Come birdie. Thank you. I
Robbie Frawley 1:43:32
see. Yeah. And so just repeatedly, repeatedly doing that. And the symptoms never started. And that was the most you know if the if the match if Norman Doidge book was the kind of match at the start. That was just the most powerful reinforcement of that tool. And I suppose the science of what was going on in my head. And yeah, it was really, really powerful.
Tasha Stanton 1:44:07
Yeah, that's incredible. Because you you hear that story as someone like I trained as a physiotherapist originally, and we learned a little bit about concussions and it would be something that I would say, I it's not unreasonable. That birdie is saying that, do you know what I mean? Fair enough. Birdie, but I think you're right, that is just that's such a, a huge coming together of everything, that all of the things that you've learned and that you did, and that kind of put you in that right place to be able to deal and have strategies in place for what to do. And that's it's incredible, because I think like we were having a little bit of this discussion before about how sometimes voicing things and verbalising and being aware of what those voices might be saying Whether or not you hear it as a real voice, where it's it's that feeling that is induced by your thoughts around that, that issue that just can be so powerful. And being aware of it, I don't think is something that we necessarily, it comes like, it comes easily to us like, I do think it's probably something that we end up having to learn. And that balance between being very aware, but also aware of what your thoughts and beliefs and things like that can also have upon symptoms. So not only were body symptoms, being aware of the other influences of that, so it's pretty cool stuff, man.
Robbie Frawley 1:45:39
Thank you. Well, you're a massive part of it.
Robbie Frawley
That's the end of Chapter 4. In the final chapter I explain the final steps back to 100%.